New Faction: Tharsians

[Wevilspore]

I would appreciate any comments, especially any for balancing the faction better or even just to rename the race.

The Tharsians are a race of intelligent ant-like creatures that have a hive conciousness and a burrowing nature.

Code: Select all

>---==---@@---==---##---==---@@---==---!0!---==---@@---==---##---==---@@---==---<

Unit:                {Race} Larva
Race:                   Insect
Hit Points:               15
Movement Type:        insectfoot
Movement:                  5
Experience:               18
Level:                     0
Alignment:              neutral
Advance to: {Race} Worker, {Race} Soldier,
             {Race} Breeder, {Race} Scout
Cost:                      5
Ability:                 None
Usage:      fighter (like Walking Corpse)
                        Attacks
Name:                Bite  | Tail Shot
Special:             None  |   None
Type:               Pierce |  Impact
Range:              Short  |   Long
Damage:               3    |     3
Number:               3    |     1

>---==---@@---==---##---==---@@+--==---!1!---==---@@---==---##---==---@@---==---<
                               |
Unit:         {Race} Worker    |        {Race} Soldier
Race:            Insect        |            Insect
Hit Points:        22          |              35
Movement Type: insectfoot      |          insectfoot
Movement:           5          |               5
Experience:        28          |              40
Level:              1          |               1
Alignment:       lawful        |            lawful
Advance to:  {Race} Sustainer  | {Race} Slayer & {Race} Ambusher
Cost:              16          |              16
Ability:          Heal         |             None
Usage:           healer        |            fighter
                Attacks        |            Attacks
Name:	    Bite   | Tail Shot |         Bite  | Tail Shot
Special:    None   |   None    |         None  |   None
Type:      Pierce  |  Impact   |        Pierce |  Impact
Range:     Short   |   Long    |        Short  |   Long
Damage:      4     |     3     |          4    |     3
Number:      3     |     1     |          5    |     2
                               |
>---==---@@---==---##---==---@++--==---!1!---==---@+---==---##---==---@@---==---<
                              |                    |
Unit:        {Race} Breeder   |    {Race} Scout    |    {Race} Leader
Race:            Insect       |       Insect       |       Insect
Hit Points:        28         |         33         |         38
Movement Type: insectfoot     |     insectfloat    |     insectfoot
Movement:           5         |          7         |          6
Experience:        18         |         33         |         50
Level:              1         |          1         |          1
Alignment:       lawful       |       chaotic      |       lawful
Advance to:  {Race} Birther   |    {Race} Flyer    |   {Race} Royalty
Cost:              18         |         17         |         25
Ability:          None        |        None        |     Leadership
Usage:           archer       |       scout        |    mixed fighter
              Attacks         |     Attacks        |     Attacks
Name:      Bite  | Ovipositor |  Bite  | Tail Shot |  Bite  | Tail Shot
Special:   None  |   Plague   |  None  |   None    |  None  |   None
Type:     Pierce |   Pierce   | Pierce |  Impact   | Pierce |  Impact
Range:     Short |    Long    |  Short |   Long    |  Short |   Long
Damage:      4   |      5     |    3   |     4     |    5   |     5
Number:      3   |      2     |    4   |     2     |    4   |     3
                              |                    |
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                               |                            |
Unit:        {Race} Sustainer  |        {Race} Slayer       |   {Race} Ambusher
Race:             Insect       |           Insect           |       Insect
Hit Points:         30         |             50             |         42
Movement Type:  insectfoot     |         insectfoot         |     insectsneak
Movement:            5         |              5             |          6
Experience:         70         |             88             |         75
Level:               2         |              2             |          2
Alignment:        lawful       |           lawful           |       neutral
Advance to:    {Race} Savior   |       {Race} Ravager       |   {Race} Assassin
                               |       {Race} Defender      |
Cost:               43         |             38             |         36
Ability:           Cure        |            None            |        None
Usage:            healer       |           fighter          |    mixed fighter
                Attacks        |         Attacks            |       Attacks
Name:        Bite  | Tail Shot |  Bite  | Claw  | Tail Shot |   Bite   | Tail Shot
Special:     None  |   None    |  None  | None  |   None    | Backstab |  Poison
Type:       Pierce |  Impact   | Pierce | Blade |  Impact   |  Pierce  |  Pierce
Range:       Short |   Long    |  Short | Short |   Long    |   Short  |   Long
Damage:        5   |     4     |    5   |  13   |     6     |     5    |     5
Number:        3   |     2     |    5   |   2   |     2     |     5    |     3
                               |                            |
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                                |                    |
Unit:         {Race} Birther    |    {Race} Flyer    |   {Race} Royalty
Race:             Insect        |       Insect       |       Insect
Hit Points:         39          |         44         |         55
Movement Type:  insectfoot      |      insectfly     |     insectfoot
Movement:            5          |          8         |          6
Experience:         80          |         90         |         100
Level:               2          |          2         |          2
Alignment:        neutral       |       chaotic      |       lawful
Advance to:  {Race} Ice Eater   |    {Race} Loner    |    {Race} Queen
             {Race} Fire Eater  |                    |
Cost:               37          |         39         |         50
Ability:           None         |        None        |     Leadership
Usage:            archer        |        scout       |    mixed fighter
                Attacks         |     Attacks        |     Attacks
Name:        Bite  | Ovipositor |  Bite  | Tail Shot |  Bite  | Ovipositor
Special:     None  |   Plague   |  None  |   None    |  None  |   Plague
Type:       Pierce |   Pierce   | Pierce |  Impact   | Pierce |   Pierce
Range:       Short |    Long    |  Short |   Long    |  Short |    Long
Damage:        5   |      5     |    4   |     4     |    7   |      7
Number:        3   |      4     |    5   |     3     |    4   |      3
                                |                    |
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                                         | 
Unit:                {Race} Savior       |       {Race} Ravager
Race:                   Insect           |           Insect
Hit Points:               40             |             60
Movement Type:        insectfoot         |         insectfoot
Movement:                  5             |              5
Experience:               100            |             100
Level:                     3             |              3
Alignment:              lawful           |           lawful
Advance to:              null            |            null
Cost:                     73             |             90
Ability:                 Cure            |         Skirmisher
Usage:                  healer           |           fighter
                   Attacks               |          Attacks
Name:     Bite  | Tail Shot | Holy Blast |  Bite  |  Claw  | Tail Shot
Special:  None  |   None    |   Magical  | Beserk | Beserk |   None
Type:    Pierce |  Impact   |    Holy    | Pierce |  Blade |  Impact
Range:    Short |   Long    |    Long    |  Short |  Short |   Long
Damage:     6   |     5     |      6     |    6   |   16   |     8
Number:     3   |     2     |      4     |    5   |    2   |     3
                                         | 
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                                   |                      |
Unit:         {Race} Defender      |    {Race} Assassin   |    {Race} Loner
Race:              Insect          |        Insect        |       Insect
Hit Points:          80            |          55          |         54
Movement Type:   insectfoot        |      insectsneak     |      insectfly
Movement:             5            |           6          |          9
Experience:          100           |          100         |         100
Level:                3            |           3          |          3
Alignment:         neutral         |        chaotic       |       chaotic
Advance to:         null           |         null         |        null
Cost:                80            |          75          |         82
Ability:          Steadfast        |      Nightstalk      |    Regeneration
Usage:             fighter         |     mixed fighter    |        scout
                 Attacks           |       Attacks        |     Attacks
Name:    Bite  | Claw  | Tail Shot |   Bite   | Tail Shot |  Bite  | Tail Shot
Special: None  | None  |   None    | Backstab |  Poison   |  None  |   None
Type:   Pierce | Blade |  Impact   |  Pierce  |  Pierce   | Pierce |  Impact
Range:   Short | Short |   Long    |   Short  |   Long    |  Short |   Long
Damage:    8   |  22   |     6     |     6    |     7     |    6   |     5
Number:    5   |   2   |     4     |     5    |     4     |    5   |     4
                                   |                      |
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                                         |
Unit:           {Race} Ice Eater         |       {Race} Fire Eater         
Race:                Insect              |             Insect
Hit Points:            50                |               50
Movement Type:     insectfire            |            insectice
Movement:               5                |                5
Experience:            100               |               100
Level:                  3                |                3
Alignment:           lawful              |             chaotic
Advance to:           null               |              null
Cost:                  85                |               85
Ability:              None               |              None
Usage:               archer              |             archer
                   Attacks               |            Attacks
Name:    Bite  | Ovipositor | Fire Blast |  Bite  | Ovipositor | Ice Blast
Special: None  |   Plague   |   Magical  |  None  |   Plague   |  Magical
Type:   Pierce |   Pierce   |    Fire    | Pierce |   Pierce   |    Ice
Range:   Short |    Long    |    Long    |  Short |    Long    |   Long
Damage:    5   |      7     |     10     |    7   |      6     |     8
Number:    4   |      4     |      4     |    3   |      5     |     5
                                         |
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                                        |
Unit:                 {Race} Queen      |   {Race} Goddess
Race:                     Insect        |       Insect
Hit Points:                 80          |         100
Movement Type:          insectfoot      |     insectfoot
Movement:                    6          |          6
Experience:                 150         |         100
Level:                       3          |          4
Alignment:                lawful        |       lawful
Advance to:           {Race} Goddess    |        null
Cost:                       100         |         250
Ability:                Leadership      |     Leadership
Usage:                 mixed fighter    |    mixed fighter
                        Attacks         |     Attacks
Name:                Bite  | Ovipositor |  Bite  | Ovipositor
Special:             None  |   Plague   |  None  |   Plague
Type:               Pierce |   Pierce   | Pierce |   Pierce
Range:               Short |    Long    |  Short |    Long
Damage:                9   |      8     |   12   |     10
Number:                5   |      4     |    5   |      4
                                        |
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insect_____

          foot       sneak     float      fly       fire        ice
         Mv  Def  | Mv  Def | Mv  Def | Mv  Def  | Mv  Def | Mv  Def
Ocean     3   80  |  3   70 |  2   80 |  1   50  | 100     |  2   70
Coast     2   70  |  2   60 |  1   70 |  1   50  |  3  80  |  1   60
Swamp     2   70  |  2   60 |  1   70 |  1   50  |  3  80  |  1   60
Grassland 1   60  |  1   50 |  1   60 |  1   50  |  1  60  |  1   60
Sand      1   40  |  1   30 |  1   40 |  1   50  |  1  60  |  1   40
Forest    2   50  |  2   40 |  2   50 |  1   50  |  2  60  |  2   50
Hills     2   50  |  2   40 |  2   50 |  1   50  |  2  50  |  2   50
Mountains 3   40  |  3   30 |  2   40 |  1   50  |  3  40  |  3   40
Village   1   50  |  1   40 |  1   50 |  1   50  |  1  50  |  1   50
Castle    1   50  |  1   40 |  1   50 |  1   50  |  1  50  |  1   50
Cave      1   30  |  1   30 |  1   30 |  1   40  |  1  40  |  1   40
Tundras   2   70  |  2   60 |  2   70 |  1   50  |  1  30  |  3   60
Canyon   100      | 100     | 100     |  1   50  | 100     | 100
Cavewall 100      | 100     | 100     | 100      | 100     | 100
                                 Resistances
Blade      110    |   100   |   110   |   110    |   110   |   110
Pierce     100    |    90   |   100   |   110    |   100   |   100
Impact      70    |    60   |    80   |    90    |    70   |    70
Fire       100    |   100   |   100   |   100    |   150   |    50
Cold       100    |   100   |   100   |   100    |    50   |   150
Holy       100    |   100   |   100   |   100    |   100   |   100

The idea is that unlike other factions, the player takes the leadership unit, whether they want one of the others or not. Also, the plague attacks should generate the Larva units and the Leader unit should not be recruitable.

[Tomsik]

There is same problem as always: art.

[Wevilspore]

Although I may not be an artist, I can find someone to do the artwork. I was asking about statisitic balancing. I didn't want this faction being either too over- or too underpowered

[Cuyo Quiz]

Dear God that is a LOT of code.

[Tomsik]

Dear God that is a LOT of code.

I don't think so, i would say rather that's a lot of art!

[kangounator]

RIPLIP !!! the worker heal and it advance to sustainer that "only" cure

[Tomsik]

RIPLIP !!! the worker heal and it advance to sustainer that "only" cure

Cure is better than heal.

[wayfarer]

Well sorry this gets slowly boring. I've seen many proposals of factions here some were good some less but all of them have lacked one thing art.

Even in danger to repeat me you need art else it's just some random stuff written on a paper.

[turin]

It slows gets boring for me to say that faction propositions belong in Ideas, not Multiplayer Development.

Mods: sic!


Also, IMHO the idea is, no offense, crap. But that's just IMHO...

[Noyga]

Well about the stats, this seems a nice faction but i noticed a few problems :

RIPLIB :
- For the Leader -> Royalty advancement the entire line loose ranged impact, so there would be a reduction of power while advancing versus skeleton-like units.
To fix it i suggest you remove the ranged attack of the leader or give him a pierce ranged attack.
By the way, since the leader is level 1 & not recruitable i'm not sure it would be used, except probably in campaigns, so it is not a big problem.

- For the Birther -> * Eater advancement you have a great loss of cold or fire resistance that is not compensated by the HP increase.
Versus ennemies that have fire and cold damages (like the drakes for example) in all cases, your advanced * Eater unit would be easier to kill than the Birther
To fix it i suggest you add a third line that do not loose its resistances.
Why not a Poison Eater for example, that have poisoned bite and a little less HP than the two other eaters ?

Units that i find overpowered :
- The defender unit has 80 HP and steadfast, i think it is too much !
If you look close, all the steadfast units in the game usually have less than 60 HP (around 50-55 HP for level 3 units)
- Then Assassin has nightstalk, poison and backstab, maybe it is a little too much ?
I think poison + ambush or nightstalk is already very powerful

About the entire faction, what units should be recruitable ? Levels 0 & 1 units (except the Leader) ?
If you only allow to recruit larvas it may be a underpowered versus comventionnal faction (but it woulmd be great for the Peasant Era).

About the defenses, when you have Defense=80, is it 80% of chance to be hit or 20 %
Same question about the resistance.

[Wevilspore]

I appreciate alot of the comments and a lot make sense.

About the defenses, when you have Defense=80, is it 80% of chance to be hit or 20 %
Same question about the resistance.

Actually, it's 20%. These numbers are based on my poring over of the .cfg code for the units.

A note on the Eater's: Each one is titled according to what it has high resistance against. The Ice Eater has high cold resistance and has a fire attack while the Fire Eater is the opposite. So, if your main worry is Undead, then pick Ice Eater. But, if Drakes are pissing you off, then, the Fire Eater is a better choice.

I lowered the opposite resistance thinking that it should be lowered to compensate for the high resistance boost.

- For the Leader -> Royalty advancement the entire line loose ranged impact, so there would be a reduction of power while advancing versus skeleton-like units.
To fix it i suggest you remove the ranged attack of the leader or give him a pierce ranged attack.

If you look, the only one with a ranged impact is the level 1 Leader. All of the others are pierce with plague attached.

- The defender unit has 80 HP and steadfast, i think it is too much !
If you look close, all the steadfast units in the game usually have less than 60 HP (around 50-55 HP for level 3 units)

Only 3 listed units have 'steadfast', 2 are dwarves and 1 is a merman. The 2 dwarves are levels 1 and 2 and the merman doesn't pick it up untill level 3. But, you do have a valid point. After noticing only a 2 Hit Point gain from Merman Warrior to Merman Hoplite, I will reduce the defender's hit points to 53.

- Then Assassin has nightstalk, poison and backstab, maybe it is a little too much ?
I think poison + ambush or nightstalk is already very powerful

That's fine. The backstab was not that important to me anyway.

About the entire faction, what units should be recruitable ? Levels 0 & 1 units (except the Leader) ?
If you only allow to recruit larvas it may be a underpowered versus comventionnal faction (but it woulmd be great for the Peasant Era).

As you noted inside the "()", that would be dependent on era. For example: If added to the Default era, then only level 0 and 1 units would be recruited with a level 2 commander. If added to the Age of Heroes era, then levels 0 through 2 units would be recruitable with a level 3 commander.

No matter what era, some things should be constant. I noticed that the leadership unit for the Loyalists is unrecruitable. The Queen line should be similar. I would say that it should be the only choice for commander but others might disagree.

[Noyga]

I appreciate alot of the comments and a lot make sense.

About the defenses, when you have Defense=80, is it 80% of chance to be hit or 20 %
Same question about the resistance.

Actually, it's 20%. These numbers are based on my poring over of the .cfg code for the units.

Then the defenses and resistance looks ok to me

A note on the Eater's: Each one is titled according to what it has high resistance against. The Ice Eater has high cold resistance and has a fire attack while the Fire Eater is the opposite. So, if your main worry is Undead, then pick Ice Eater. But, if Drakes are pissing you off, then, the Fire Eater is a better choice.

I lowered the opposite resistance thinking that it should be lowered to compensate for the high resistance boost.

The problem with Drakes is that they have the two type of damages :
- Fire eaters will be easier to kill than Birther using Saurian Tribalists/Icecasters
- Ice eaters will be easier to kill than Birther using Burners
In the two cases, the *Eater will be easier to kill, so all possible advancements would be easier to kill, that is the RIPLIB problem
Also if you play versus 2 players, one drake, one undead, the same problem occurs.

- For the Leader -> Royalty advancement the entire line loose ranged impact, so there would be a reduction of power while advancing versus skeleton-like units.
To fix it i suggest you remove the ranged attack of the leader or give him a pierce ranged attack.

If you look, the only one with a ranged impact is the level 1 Leader. All of the others are pierce with plague attached.

Well that is the problem : the level 1 would be more effective versus Skeletons than every level 2 of this line !

About the Assassin, i'm not 100% sure it is overpowered, it seems overpowered to me.

[Wevilspore]

Would raising the respective 'weakness' of the Eaters to, say, 70 make it more balanced? Or should it be higher, say 80 or 90.

As for the issue of the level 1 leader having an overpowered impact attack, this would only be an issue in the Peasant Era. If you noticed, the only time the ranged attack was pierce was because it had a special attached. All the impact ranged attacks were just damage with nothing special on it.

One last thing, what is 'RIPLIB' short for? I have seen it a couple of times and havn't worked out what the long version might be.

[irrevenant]

'RIPLIB'=Reduction In Power from Levelling Is Bad.
ie. at least one branch of the levelling tree should be in no way inferior to the original.

In this example, you could easily be in a situation where you don't want to level to either ice or fire eaters (eg. 'cos you're facing mixed burners and Saurians).

P.S. I think it would be cool if you did the art, released the faction and ironed out the balance issues in play. Wayfarer's right when he says a lot of people post cool ideas that never progress beyond that stage.

[ozymandias]

Is there a reason for the Tharsians to develop Fire/Ice Eaters? They seem to be mainly anti-drake/undead units, but not very fitting for an insect race.

Also, bite probably should have blade instead of pierce as damagetype (note that daggers do blade damage, too).