Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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kilvan99
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by kilvan99 »

Quick question: i cant see why Wose Leader was removed? Newb here! Thanks
PAN66
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by PAN66 »

Hello! New player without a lot of experience. But really enjoying the game.

I have an idea about the hardy/healthy discussion.
As I see it, the dwarves are struggling against all matchups with the exception of undead where they dominate.

Why not give the dwarves (fighter, guardsman,thunderer) three perks instead of two? (Maybe exclude the ulfserker from the 3 perks for balance reasons against undead). To the pool of possible perks you can include 6 perks: healthy, resilient, strong, quick, intelligent, no perk. So some dwarves would have 2 perks but most 3. This would increase the dwarves with the quick trait to 50 % and would make the dwarves overall somewhat stronger.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Cackfiend »

Yomar wrote: February 10th, 2020, 6:18 am Was the HI infantry enhanced to increase his utility?

DO Loyalist cavalry have still only 7 MP?
That was a bad change in my opinion, now unlike every other faction, Loyalist don't have an unit with at least 8 MP, speed and scouting is very important in this game.
I'll look into an HI change.


Cavs changing to 7mp and the Ulf arcane resist nerf were definitely the two biggest changes that I saw that could not turn out well. Unfortunately due to the low player count I have still not received much quality feedback to make an informed decision. Horsemen still have 8MP btw.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

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lovecrafts-cat
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by lovecrafts-cat »

do i need to make a new account/nickname for ladder or can i just use the same one i use now?
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ForPeace
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by ForPeace »

lovecrafts-cat wrote: September 2nd, 2020, 4:26 am do i need to make a new account/nickname for ladder or can i just use the same one i use now?
Use the same nickname as at the forums.
You need to register here: https://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/join.php
My Ladder of Wesnoth profile
I currently maintain the Polish translation of The Battle for Wesnoth.
Jeżeli jesteś polskim graczem, dołącz do wesnoth.com.pl
Yomar
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Yomar »

Thx, I think that I'm allready registerd on the ladder site.
demario
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by demario »

Hi guys, thanks for the great work on this era. I wish I could play it more and be good enough to give insight.

Let me suggest some changes in the random map picker that could increase the usability:

1. While this is part of the ladder era add-on (and your own work), using the random map picker for casual is confusing as the scenario has ladder in its name. It sometimes confuses people to report the casual game result to the ladder (without LADDER in the name).
Could the map picker be changed to not include "ladder" in its name? Or be published as a standalone add-on?

2. It would be good that the default settings (selected or not) for each map is defined in the picker file (eg All_Maps.cfg), so it can be changed at will.
That is a suggestion of implementation:

Code: Select all

--- Ladder_Era/macros/map_picker.cfg    2020-12-07 15:57:38.949609511 +0800
+++ Ladder_Era.bak/macros/map_picker.cfg    2020-09-30 18:08:30.588671098 +0800
@@ -95,14 +95,18 @@
     {LE_PRINT_MAP_POOL}
 #enddef

-#define LE_MAP_CHECKBOX MAP_ID MAP_NAME
+#define LE_MAP_CHECKBOX_DEFAULT DEFAULT MAP_ID MAP_NAME
     [checkbox]
         id={MAP_ID}
         name={MAP_NAME}
-        default=yes
+        default={DEFAULT}
     [/checkbox]
 #enddef

+#define LE_MAP_CHECKBOX MAP_ID MAP_NAME
+    {LE_MAP_CHECKBOX_DEFAULT yes {MAP_ID} {MAP_NAME}}
+#enddef
+
 # Is used as part of CREATE_MAP_POOL for the LE_MAP_PICKER_COMMON_CODE
 #define LE_MAP_POOL MAP_ID MAP_NAME
     [if]
In the map picker the map setting is done with {LE_MAP_CHECKBOX_DEFAULT no multiplayer_Den_of_Onis_Ladder_Random _"2p — Den of Onis"}

3. My experience from the MP server is that the only pickers that are used are Classic_Maps.cfg and All_Maps.cfg.
I think a third useful one would be "personal selection" picker that each people could edit to set the LE_MAP_CHECKBOX_DEFAULT for each map while keeping the other two unchanged. That would solve the misunderstanding of seeing "all maps" when only some are selected.

See what you can do. Cheers!
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sergey
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by sergey »

Hi demario! Thanks for the proposals, I will try to implement them and see how it goes. Will do that after the tournament to not introduce bugs.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
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sergey
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by sergey »

Fixed bug reported by Maboul. Starting units on Hornshark Island map should depend on player's faction.

Those units are taken from the default era, I think that is ok. Taking those units from the ladder era will make the code more complicated and less maintainable. Especially considering that the ladder era units are likely to be changed in the future, and I preserve all their variations to not break older replays, I can easily forget to keep Hornshark units up to date.
Author of SP scenario Dragon Fight and SP campaign Captured by a Nightmare.
Created The Rise of Wesnoth (alternative mechanics) version of the mainline campaign.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Cackfiend »

Ladder Era 0.1.6 is now out. Elvish Sorceress as a leader has been removed from the Rebels faction. Hornshark Island is no longer part of the Classic Maps Pool. Hornshark Island also had its bug fixed so initial units will spawn correctly.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Cackfiend »

Ladder Era 0.1.7 is now out. The Ulf has been reverted to 10% arcane resist.

The ghost being 19g and the Footpad damage type change is enough to help balance out the Knalgan vs Undead matchup. Ghosts have been extremely difficult to deal with since the arcane change making it so that Ulfs, even when strong, have a hard time defeating them. This was the most heavily scrutinized change in the Ladder Era testing phase, and I am not surprised it needed to be reverted.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
Tondo
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Tondo »

I am glad to see the ulf back to +10% arcane, but I don't see much real effect on gameplay - this gives ghost 3/4/4 day/twilight/night dmg, vs. 3/4/5 with 0 or -10% resistance. Change from 5 to 4 night dmg also does not affect ghost's drain - still 2; and the fact that ghost is expected to survive a nighttime encounter with zerker pretty much intact (maybe if you had a strong/resilient zerker on 50% mountain...).

Other than that, I have two things that bug me:

1/ gobo traits. Being lvl 0, this is often overlooked unit, but I think the traits have a disproportionate effect here. Weak and slow traits really nerf the unit too much compared to dim, which only takes gobo from 13 to 15 xp for level up, so it still needs 2 kills (who expects a gobo to survive 5 engagements to level up with a single kill anyway?). I understand that different traits have different desirability, but here the change is pretty significant (especially vs drakes where weak gobo does 5-3 dmg instead of 7-3 during twilight). Don't know how to remedy this though, removing traits from gobos does not feel right. Giving weak gobos +1 movement point is too good, just as giving slow gobo +1 melee dmg...

2/dwarf shooter's 18-1 ranged attack. I know it is a iconic unit, maybe for this very reason, but it makes it very luck-dependent. Changing it to 9-2 would make the shooter less luckish. It would not impact overal damage output much, except for cases like ghoul with 30% pierce resistance that would go from 13-1 to 6-2. The reaction has been mostly negative when I brought this up in discussions, so not giving it much hope, but still had to say it.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Cackfiend »

Tondo wrote: February 16th, 2021, 11:35 am I am glad to see the ulf back to +10% arcane, but I don't see much real effect on gameplay - this gives ghost 3/4/4 day/twilight/night dmg, vs. 3/4/5 with 0 or -10% resistance. Change from 5 to 4 night dmg also does not affect ghost's drain - still 2; and the fact that ghost is expected to survive a nighttime encounter with zerker pretty much intact (maybe if you had a strong/resilient zerker on 50% mountain...).
Ladder Era Ulf was originally -20% arcane resist which is much more significant because Ghosts were doing 4/5/6 damage (that's 3 hp drain at night)


Tondo wrote: February 16th, 2021, 11:35 am 1/ gobo traits. Being lvl 0, this is often overlooked unit, but I think the traits have a disproportionate effect here. Weak and slow traits really nerf the unit too much compared to dim, which only takes gobo from 13 to 15 xp for level up, so it still needs 2 kills (who expects a gobo to survive 5 engagements to level up with a single kill anyway?). I understand that different traits have different desirability, but here the change is pretty significant (especially vs drakes where weak gobo does 5-3 dmg instead of 7-3 during twilight). Don't know how to remedy this though, removing traits from gobos does not feel right. Giving weak gobos +1 movement point is too good, just as giving slow gobo +1 melee dmg...
Goblins are rarely a good idea in a competitive match, and even more rarely are they used correctly. If you think of weak goblins as quick/intel, dim goblins as strong/quick, and slow goblins as strong/intelligent then it's a little easier to forgive them for their traits. There are currently no plans to change the Goblin.
Tondo wrote: February 16th, 2021, 11:35 am 2/dwarf shooter's 18-1 ranged attack. I know it is a iconic unit, maybe for this very reason, but it makes it very luck-dependent. Changing it to 9-2 would make the shooter less luckish. It would not impact overal damage output much, except for cases like ghoul with 30% pierce resistance that would go from 13-1 to 6-2. The reaction has been mostly negative when I brought this up in discussions, so not giving it much hope, but still had to say it.
I've heard this suggestion before. I do agree the Thunderer is a very luck-based all or nothing unit with its ranged attack. Unfortunately it would really fundamentally change the unit if the attack was turned into two half dmg attacks. There are currently no plans to change the Thunderer.
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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ArthurMitchell
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by ArthurMitchell »

Cackfiend wrote: February 16th, 2021, 2:48 pm
Tondo wrote: February 16th, 2021, 11:35 am 2/dwarf shooter's 18-1 ranged attack. I know it is a iconic unit, maybe for this very reason, but it makes it very luck-dependent. Changing it to 9-2 would make the shooter less luckish. It would not impact overal damage output much, except for cases like ghoul with 30% pierce resistance that would go from 13-1 to 6-2. The reaction has been mostly negative when I brought this up in discussions, so not giving it much hope, but still had to say it.
I've heard this suggestion before. I do agree the Thunderer is a very luck-based all or nothing unit with its ranged attack. Unfortunately it would really fundamentally change the unit if the attack was turned into two half dmg attacks. There are currently no plans to change the Thunderer.
Here's an idea for the Thunderer. You ready for it?

Give him a second 14-1 range pierce "flat shot" attack. This attack will ALWAYS (yes, always) hit, with its damage being calculated according to defense %.

For example, a Grunt on hills will take a guaranteed 7-1 from the "flat shot" attack. Of course you are always free to choose the big 18-1 attack, and take your 50/50 chances. The "flat shot" should always be less damage than the overall expected output of the Thunder's 18-1, as you're given a guaranteed hit every time you attack. That's something that could be abused, but it won't with proper damage balance. Also the flat shot should be attack-only. We don't need to change the Thunderer in defense, just give him more versatility in his attack. As another example, a 14-1 flat shot will deal only 5-1 to a thief/fencer/assassin on 70%. Would you like to take your guaranteed 5-1, or risk a 20-1 vs a ninja unit? I can go on. A horse on flat will take 10-1 guaranteed, or you can take your 60% chance and shoot for 20-1 instead. Etc. etc. I'm sure top players will find situations where this 100% hit is superior to the thunder's 18-1 all-or-nothing attack, but that's the point.

Let them decide when and where they want to risk the Thunder's big luck-based attack, and where they want a guaranteed much-smaller reliable hit.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Ladder Era - Competitive 1v1 play on the Ladder of Wesnoth

Post by Cackfiend »

Giving them a lesser damage ranged attack with Marksman is an interesting idea, but nothing is 100% in wesnoth
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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