Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

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nemaara
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by nemaara »

Some comments on the current version (most of these new comments are now for level 2s and 3s, I think level 1s are still fine for the most part):

In the skirmisher line, I find it a little odd that the melee attack starts out as a 4-4 attack, then changes to an 8-3 upon level up (basically, losing a strike is a bit weird to me, it's not bad necessarily, but just a bit odd). Possibly consider changing the level 1 or level 2 so that the number of strikes stays the same or goes up on leveling? Also side note, this line looks female to me, but has the male gender at the moment. Perhaps it would be worth switching them to female?

In the herbalist line, I think the Apothecary and Luminary could have a little more HP since they're a melee-based healer. It feels a little bad that they have so little hp while having to use only melee attacks when they actually do engage in combat. I'd possibly suggest increasing the base hp by maybe 2-3 for both the level 2 and 3.

Small nitpicks on the rider line: the raider has a melee fire attack named "mace" right now, you'd probably want to switch that to "torch". Same for the marauder. The Sunderer feels slightly weak with a 9-3 melee attack, since it's supposed to be the melee version of the rider advancement. I'd suggest increasing the damage to 10-3 or even 11-3. On the other hand, the Cataphract's lance is potentially a bit strong; it might be brought back to 9-3 instead of 10-3 (not totally sure on this one, you can feel free to decide). In terms of art, there's a stray pixel on the lower right of the swiftrider sprite.

I do like switching the shield attack to the shieldguard, which helps separate it from every other melee unit that uses spears. I'd consider reducing the shield damage by 1 on both the shieldguard and shieldmaster (to 9-3 and 14-3, respectively), but I have no other comments than that on them. The marksman sword is fine for the swordsman advancement, but I would increase its damage by 1 or 2 for the blademaster. I assume the warmaster isn't implemented yet, since it doesn't have the marksman attack on it. I'd also suggest increasing the melee damage for the captain line by 1 (to 10-3 and 10-4 for the level 2 and 3, respectively).

There's a huge step up in power between the naga ringcaster and naga bladewind. Possibly reduce the bladewind's ranged attack to 6-5 or 7-5? (I might need to update this suggestion after some more playtesting, though).

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by The_Gnat »

nemaara wrote:
April 19th, 2019, 12:36 am
In the skirmisher line, I find it a little odd that the melee attack starts out as a 4-4 attack, then changes to an 8-3 upon level up (basically, losing a strike is a bit weird to me, it's not bad necessarily, but just a bit odd). Possibly consider changing the level 1 or level 2 so that the number of strikes stays the same or goes up on leveling?
Yes that is a little wierd. I will discuss with the team what there thoughts are. The lvl 1 is probably not going to change but we might consider changing its advancemnts to add more cohesion.
In the herbalist line, I think the Apothecary and Luminary could have a little more HP since they're a melee-based healer. It feels a little bad that they have so little hp while having to use only melee attacks when they actually do engage in combat. I'd possibly suggest increasing the base hp by maybe 2-3 for both the level 2 and 3.
Good idea. The elvish druid has 36 so it makes little sense for it to have less than that. :lol:
Also side note, this line looks female to me, but has the male gender at the moment. the raider has a melee fire attack named "mace" right now, you'd probably want to switch that to "torch".
I am working on the DF branch for mainline currently and I will add these changes in. :)
The Sunderer feels slightly weak with a 9-3 melee attack, since it's supposed to be the melee version of the rider advancement. I'd suggest increasing the damage to 10-3 or even 11-3. On the other hand, the Cataphract's lance is potentially a bit strong; it might be brought back to 9-3 instead of 10-3 (not totally sure on this one, you can feel free to decide). I'd consider reducing the shield damage by 1 on both the shieldguard and shieldmaster (to 9-3 and 14-3, respectively)
I agree with both these suggestions. I would support 10-3 5-3 (buff on both ranged and melee) for the Sunderer because it is a lot slower than its Raider variant. I think the Cataphract's lance is fine though, it is below average for a charging unit of level 3 (also worth noting is that the 3rd strike is almost always useless for a charge unit, unless its attacking archer). Also I would suggest only 9-3 damage for the Spearguard, that limits its effectiveness so it is not too OP in all matchups.
The marksman sword is fine for the swordsman advancement, but I would increase its damage by 1 or 2 for the blademaster. I assume the warmaster isn't implemented yet, since it doesn't have the marksman attack on it. I'd also suggest increasing the melee damage for the captain line by 1 (to 10-3 and 10-4 for the level 2 and 3, respectively).
The Captain line we found to have too great synergy with the Soldier (in terms of its leadership) and because it was so easy to exploit in MP games we decided it necessary to make it extra weak in order to compensate. So yes it is below average damage, but that is intentional.

In regards to marksman we did a lot of testing and debating about the Swordsman and found the swordsman to be well balanced for its damage. Though if you would like to discuss this I would be interested in hearing your reasons for increasing it. :)
There's a huge step up in power between the naga ringcaster and naga bladewind. Possibly reduce the bladewind's ranged attack to 6-5 or 7-5? (I might need to update this suggestion after some more playtesting, though).
I think I agree with you on this. I believe 7-5 would be more appropriate. :)

Thank you for your comments!
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nemaara
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by nemaara »

The buff in damage wasn't for the swordsman, I think that one seems balanced, if even a little strong. I was suggesting it for the blademaster, who only gains 4 dmg on its marksman attack, I think it could gain maybe 5-6 dmg instead (so no longer 16-2, but 17-2 or 18-2 marksman). Reason is it's rare to want to use the marksman attack over the regular attack except for possibly 70% def or something.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by The_Gnat »

nemaara wrote:
April 19th, 2019, 2:54 am
The buff in damage wasn't for the swordsman, I think that one seems balanced, if even a little strong. I was suggesting it for the blademaster, who only gains 4 dmg on its marksman attack, I think it could gain maybe 5-6 dmg instead (so no longer 16-2, but 17-2 or 18-2 marksman). Reason is it's rare to want to use the marksman attack over the regular attack except for possibly 70% def or something.
Yes, sorry about my failure to read. You make a good point. :)
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype »

nemaara wrote:
April 19th, 2019, 12:36 am
In the skirmisher line, I find it a little odd that the melee attack starts out as a 4-4 attack, then changes to an 8-3 upon level up
i think the lv ups are leftovers from an older design. they will be adjusted accordingly.
nemaara wrote:
April 19th, 2019, 12:36 am
In the herbalist line, I think the Apothecary and Luminary could have a little more HP since they're a melee-based healer.
the low hp is due to them having regen+8. Yes they are melee fighters but they are not supposed to be used in the vanguard. they should remain support units. otherwise we end up with an op apothecary is it was in the initial version.



rest will be considered and executed. thanks for your time.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Computer_Player »

A couple of test matches in the new dunefolk. More power to people btw, I'm very glad and proud with what has been accomplished so far. Thank you guys!

Will be commenting on these later on (need sleep). For now I post them raw.
Attachments
UD vs Dunefolk at The Freelands replay.gz
(26.69 KiB) Downloaded 139 times
Dunefolk vs Loyalists at Howling Ghost Badlands replay.gz
(14.71 KiB) Downloaded 138 times

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype »

some comments from your perspective would indeed give more insights.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Spixi »

Are there already tests with Hornshark Island? As there is no roster for the Dunefolk, they start with the following units:

loyal resilient dim Young Ogre
strong resilient quick Giant Rat
loyal intelligent Troll Whelp
quick resilient Mudcrawler
loyal fearless slow Fire Guardian (fearless is unnecessary here, because it is already neutral)
mechanical loyal slow Giant Scorpion

I am afraid, that this is a little bit too strong against Undead.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by The_Gnat »

Spixi wrote:
May 5th, 2019, 11:19 pm
Are there already tests with Hornshark Island? As there is no roster for the Dunefolk, they start with the following units:

loyal resilient dim Young Ogre
strong resilient quick Giant Rat
loyal intelligent Troll Whelp
quick resilient Mudcrawler
loyal fearless slow Fire Guardian (fearless is unnecessary here, because it is already neutral)
mechanical loyal slow Giant Scorpion

I am afraid, that this is a little bit too strong against Undead.
Hi Spixi! Thanks for that! Yes I also agree that is too powerful. With the update to the DF it would be good for a new roster to be drawn up. :)
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Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype »



Here is the last update for this era. It presents the final state of our work. Changes are still possible but this is what we consider the most balanced for now considering all the wishes you have had.



Here are links to the other updates in case you are interested in having a direct comparison.

Update #1
Update #2

Infantry


One big new change for the Dunefolk in general was made when we realised that the Sand/Desert terrain buff made 0 sense. When other humans have penalty on desert, why should DF then get a buff? It would make more sense that DF treats sand just like flat. This would mean that all Dunefolk infanteries and mounts now are 40% sand and 1mp cost for that terrain, with the exception of two unit. The rover and the skirmisher line both have 50% def instead of 40% on sand. Rover being explorers and traversing these kind of terrains more then any other unit, it makes sense for them to be "know" the sands better then other. As the Skirmisher being elusive 60% sand is appropriate.
Furthermore, we found out that the Rover required a buff in terrain, more specifically in forest. Now we know, that Dunefolk does not like forests. But a unit like the rover which travels a lot might encounter also some Palm forests or tropical areas with a lot of greens. We already established that it's not all just sand. 50% forest defensc for Rover hence seems an appropriate buff.

Soldier:
  • hp from 40 to 41
Spearguard:
  • shield impact from 10-3 to 9-3
Spearmaster:
  • shield impact from 15-3 to 14-3
Herbalist:
  • hp from 28 to 29
Apothecary:
  • hp from 35 to 39
Luminary:
  • hp from 48 to 52


Mounted Units


There was not a big change happening other then unifying their armour in a more comprehensible and less complex way. They still differ from each other meaning that each of the lv ups have unique resistance. They are now designed that way that the lv3 Windrider has 10% blade/impact, the Marauder 20% blade/impact and the Cataphrakt 30% blade/impact while all of them maintain the -20% pierce.

Swiftrider:
  • mace impact from 6-2 to 9-2
  • hp from 35 to 39
  • xp from 62 to 80
Windrider:
  • mace impact from 7-3 to 9-3
  • hp from 47 to 52
  • blade res from 0% to 10%
Sunderer:
  • mace impact from 9-3 to 11-3
  • hp from 50 to 58
  • xp from 70 to 76
  • cold res from -10% to 0%
Cataphrakt:
  • lance pierce charge from 10-3 to 13-2
  • bow pierce from 5-3 to 6-3
  • hp from 65 to 71
  • mp from 6 to 7
  • imapct res from 20% to 30%
  • cold res from -10% to 0%

Marauder:
  • hp from 42 to 44

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Celtic_Minstrel »

So just for the record, I don't really care about the little details, but as long as Dunefolk are better on sand than Loyalists, it should be fine.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by ghype »

Yes. They are.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Hejnewar »

Hi.
Changes:
Burner
Ranged damage increased from 6 to 7.
Melee damage decreased from 7 to 6.
No dunefolk unit is great at killing trolls when thier number is high, now they can kill troll from 2 hexes. They also had a bit of a hard time pushing against undead and while manageable they struggle with it a bit. Other matchups: Elves can deal with dunefolk without of woses but if they chose to use them burners will now be less threatening for fighters to deal with during day. No other big effect.

Soldier line cold resistance increades from -10 to 0.
Now soldiers need resilient trait in order to survive 3 shots from adept, this change makes them able to survive 3 shots even without it. This change has pretty much no impact on other matchups.

Herbalist hp increased from 29 do 32.
While not huge i think that this change is very important, it will let them survive no matter what traits they get against skeletons and spearmans, as well as non strong drake fighters (and probably few other units). Herbalists often are placed on flat in the most optimal spot to heal usually close behind frontline and if stars aline properly they can die in just one move of enemy unit not even letting them use their regeneration ability, after this buff this is not the case anymore.

Level 2
Spoiler:
Last edited by Hejnewar on October 27th, 2019, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by Krogen »

I welcome the burner change. In my opinion it never really worked out as a melee/ranged unit. It always should've focused on the latter. This way it'll deal 9-3 fire damage during the day, just like mages, minus the magic. Which is very much needed against UD.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units

Post by doofus-01 »

Is it odd that there is no forest terrain defense penalty for the rider line, unlike the loyalist/"human" horsemen? They are supposed to be human, and there's no reason to think they'd be better with forests than the other human horsemen. Basically change 40%->30%.

Sorry if this has been brought up already, so many pages to review.
I'm not big in MP, so I don't know what sort of can of worms this is for balance, but surely expectations are still relevant.

EDIT: Also, for similar reasons of expectations, does it make sense for the Naga recruit to be liminal? The mainline Naga is neutral.
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