Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 4th, 2018, 7:32 am

The_Gnat wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 2:08 am
I can see the value of a ranged attack but is it better than giving both blade and pierce melee (or it could have 3 different attacks, which would allow it to have a even more useful role against larger variety of enemy factions) ? Also do you think it would be redundant considering the number of mixed fighters in the DF.
I'm not sure about the redundant part. The spear I like more though, since I think it better explains how poison is applied despite the water.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 5:10 am
Is there a reason why it has to be just one strike? Could it be increased to two? Just a thought.
What about giving +1 strike, but removing the slow? Having the additional damage type would still be useful.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 4th, 2018, 8:59 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 12:53 am
6-2 melee poison spear/spine
3-3 ranged bow
Movement perhaps should be 7 as well
I like it. A lot.
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 7:32 am
What about giving +1 strike, but removing the slow?
I support this. A lot.

Impact mostly use-full against drakes. Currently swords man has base dmg of 13, hence he deals roughly 11,7 dmg against skels. With two strikes shield bash should be at least 7dmg in order to deal more dmg to skels then the blade. I would probably make it even 8-2dmg so its makes a bit more sense to use it over blade. This way however it would be only usefull against skels whereas I don't think DF lacks impact against skels at all.

Alternatively, we can have it instead of 10-1 slow, 5-2/6-2 slow. This way it is usefull against other unit too, especially at night, where slowing a unit would make more sense then dealing slightly more dmg.


Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 5:10 am
Not only are they mainline, it has been proposed to move them from UtBS to core (factionless) so that other addons can directly include them.
If thats the case, then maybe it should be considerable to make this thing of actual mainline lore. As in the spine/bones of such sea creature (sea serpent) is highly venomous, which are hunted down by nagas. This would explain how DF naga and UtbS naga archer, could realistically how poison attacks.
"These two foot long shafts, tipped with a potent poison, have been known to slay many kinds of prey."
I find it more exciting to learn more about naga backgrond traditions, that they go out and hunt creature in order to harvest their bones in order to use spines and ribs to make spears and bone shards for arrow tips.

What do you think?

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Temuchin Khan » December 4th, 2018, 12:14 pm

Taking a look at this thread, I agree that a Jinn or a Naga would work for water control in a Middle Eastern-themed faction like this. However, I wanted to mention a few other possibilities, straight from the Arabian Nights.

The story of Abdullah the Fisherman is about a man who captures a Merman while out fishing. So clearly, Merfolk also figure in Arabian mythology, not just European, and would be an option for the Dunefolk. But I would fully understand if people thought Merfolk would be overused if they got included in yet another faction.

Two other possibilities can also be found in this same tale. At one point in the story, the Merman has Abdullah smear himself with the liver oil of a fish called the Dandan. This anointing enables Abdullah to then walk underwater without harm. So another option would be to have a specialized Dunefolk unit that can survive underwater because it has smeared itself with Dandan liver oil.

Finally, the Dandan itself might be an option. It is described as a large carnivorous fish, at least as big as a camel, with an antipathy toward Merfolk but a fear of humans. Perhaps some Dunefolk who live along the coast managed to tame a few?
[The Merman said,] "I have a trust to give thee; so come thou with me into the sea, that I may carry thee to my city and entertain thee in my house and give thee a deposit.... I will bring thee an ointment, wherewith when thou hast anointed thy body, the water will do thee no hurt, though thou shouldst pass the lave of thy life going about in the great deep: and thou shalt lie down and rise up in the sea and naught shall harm thee." Quoth the fisherman, "An the case by thus, well and good; but bring me the ointment, so that I may make trial of it;" and quoth the Merman, "So be it;" then, taking the fish-basket disappeared in the depths. He was absent awhile, and presently returned with an unguent as it were the fat of beef, yellow as gold and sweet of savour. Asked the fisherman, "What is this, O my brother?"; and answered the Merman, "'Tis the liver-fat of a kind of fish called the Dandan, [FN#261] which is the biggest of all fishes and the fiercest of our foes. His bulk is greater than that of any beast of the land, and were he to meet a camel or an elephant, he would swallow it at a single mouthful." Abdullah enquired, "O my brother, what doth this baleful beast?"; and the Merman replied, "He eateth of the beasts of the sea. Hast thou not heard the saying, 'Like the fishes of the sea: forcible eateth feeble? [FN#262]'" "True; but have you many of these Dandans in the sea?" "Yes, there be many of them with us. None can tell their tale save Almighty Allah." "Verily, I fear lest, if I go down with thee into the deep a creature of this kind fall in with me and devour me." "Have no fear: when he seeth thee, he will know thee for a son of Adam and will fear thee and flee. He dreadeth none in the sea as he dreadeth a son of Adam; for that an he eateth a man he dieth forthright, because human fat is a deadly poison to this kind of creature; nor do we collect its liver-speck save by means of a man, when he falleth into the sea and is drowned; for that his semblance becometh changed and ofttimes his flesh is torn; so the Dandan eateth him, deeming him the same of the denizens of the deep, and dieth. Then we light upon our enemy dead and take the speck of his liver and grease ourselves so that we can over-wander the main in safety. Also, wherever there is a son of Adam, though there be in that place an hundred or two hundred or a thousand or more of these beasts, all die forthright an they but hear him..., and if a thousand or more of this kind hear an Adamite cry a single cry, forthright all die nor hath one of them power to remove from his place; so, whenever a son of Adam falleth into the sea, we take him and anoint him with this fat and go round about the depths with him, and whenever we see a Dandan or two or three or more, we bid him cry out and they all die forthright for his once crying."

Quoth the fisherman, "I put my trust in Allah;" and, doffing his clothes, buried them in a hole which he dug in the beach; after which he rubbed his body from head to heels which that ointment. Then he descended into the water and diving, opened his eyes and the brine did him no hurt. So he walked right and left, and if he would, he rose to the sea-face, and if he would, he sank to the base. And he beheld the water as it were a tent over his head; yet it wrought him no hurt....

Suddenly, he heard a mighty loud cry and turning, saw some black thing, the bigness of a camel or bigger, coming down upon him from the liquid mountain and crying out. So he asked his friend, "What is this, O my brother?"; and the Merman answered, "This is the Dandan...."

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 4th, 2018, 1:37 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 7:32 am
The_Gnat wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 2:08 am
I can see the value of a ranged attack but is it better than giving both blade and pierce melee (or it could have 3 different attacks, which would allow it to have a even more useful role against larger variety of enemy factions) ? Also do you think it would be redundant considering the number of mixed fighters in the DF.
I'm not sure about the redundant part. The spear I like more though, since I think it better explains how poison is applied despite the water.
Indeed, an "injection"-type weapon would probably need to be a piercing weapon like a spear.
ghype wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 8:59 am
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 5:10 am
Not only are they mainline, it has been proposed to move them from UtBS to core (factionless) so that other addons can directly include them.
If thats the case, then maybe it should be considerable to make this thing of actual mainline lore. As in the spine/bones of such sea creature (sea serpent) is highly venomous, which are hunted down by nagas. This would explain how DF naga and UtbS naga archer, could realistically how poison attacks.
"These two foot long shafts, tipped with a potent poison, have been known to slay many kinds of prey."
I find it more exciting to learn more about naga backgrond traditions, that they go out and hunt creature in order to harvest their bones in order to use spines and ribs to make spears and bone shards for arrow tips.

What do you think?
Adding to the lore is always good, sure. As long as it makes sense, of course.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by name » December 4th, 2018, 2:50 pm

A Naga unit for the DF is not a bad fit though it is not unique or clever either.
ghype wrote:
December 3rd, 2018, 3:05 pm
So maybe poison on naga is not realistic even though we like to see it having poison.
The Naga is a venomous snake creature (specifically half cobra). If you are going to make a Naga unit with poison it would be completely silly to do anything other than give it a venomous bite (or spit) attack.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Temuchin Khan » December 4th, 2018, 3:23 pm

name wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 2:50 pm
A Naga unit for the DF is not a bad fit though it is not unique or clever either.
If you want something more unique, check out my suggestion of the Dandan fish--straight from the Arabian Nights.

Actually, if you ask me, the Dandan fish sounds a lot like a Killer Whale. That, surely, would be a unique unit for any Wesnoth faction. And in our world today, we all know that Killer Whales can be trained. So I think giving the Dunefolk a Dandan fish would be both unique and fit both the Arabian mythological source material and the anti-magic lore of the faction as it has been developed.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 4th, 2018, 4:16 pm

name wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 2:50 pm
A Naga unit for the DF is not a bad fit though it is not unique or clever either.

It would have a slight different appearance. Who says nagas are only in the great continent?
name wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 2:50 pm
The Naga is a venomous snake creature (specifically half cobra). If you are going to make a Naga unit with poison it would be completely silly to do anything other than give it a venomous bite (or spit) attack.
Mainline naga hunter uses poisonous arrow heads though. Mainline has a sea serpent which does exactly what you describe.
Temuchin Khan wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 3:23 pm
So I think giving the Dunefolk a Dandan fish would be both unique and fit both the Arabian mythological source material and the anti-magic lore of the faction as it has been developed.
are there any visual references for such a unit? Even if I would be interested in creating a sprite for such a unit (which I am not), I wouldn't know where to begin.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 5th, 2018, 12:34 am

Making the new unit be a good fit is really what I think the main goal should be. If it's also really unique and different, then great, but fitting into the faction takes precedence, at least in my mind.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by The_Gnat » December 5th, 2018, 1:50 am

Temuchin Khan wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 3:23 pm
If you want something more unique, check out my suggestion of the Dandan fish--straight from the Arabian Nights.
I think the idea of a Danden fish would be cool, but I agree with pentaractogon that the key goal is fitting in and not necessarily uniqueness. Also I see the naga as a more valuable unit for the faction because of its versatility on land and water.
name wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 2:50 pm
A Naga unit for the DF is not a bad fit though it is not unique or clever either
I don't think it's particularly clever but I do believe it will fill a necessary role in the faction and be a major improvement from the falcon.
name wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 2:50 pm
If you are going to make a Naga unit with poison it would be completely silly to do anything other than give it a venomous bite (or spit) attack.
I wouldn't oppose a venomous bite but I believe two strikes are probably the best for balanced. Also close in combat is probably a snakes first choice but not always practical under water so I would see them carrying weapons and why not stick some poison on those weapons as well.
Temuchin Khan wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 12:14 pm
Merman has Abdullah smear himself with the liver oil of a fish called the Dandan
I do believe that Merman are overused so it would be great to see another naga. As for a underwater DF soldier that would be really interesting but perhaps not entirely useful. I believe it is too rare to be considered a recruitable unit, both rare in the availability of Danden fish and rare in the quantity of water that DF would normally encounter.
ghype wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 8:59 am
Alternatively, we can have it instead of 10-1 slow, 5-2/6-2 slow.
Yes I believe two strikes would be the best improvement.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 5:10 am
I'm not sure. Aren't blow darts essentially needles? They should have little resistance from the water
I am of course no master in the physical sciences but I would imagine that the movement within any body of water would displace the light needle like object considerably.

Furthermore the speed of a blowing dart is not incredibly fast in normal air conditions and I imagine significantly less slow than an arrow.
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 5:10 am
Also, the netcaster's clubs are described as "oar-like". That suggests that, unlike a typical club, they are actually somewhat streamli
Interesting, Thank you for letting me know. However, overall I believe it is not worthwhile to discuss weapon types for an extended period of time because, as 'name' pointed out, there are an infinite number of possibilities. The key is to first establish balance. For example a naga could attack with any number of piercing, stabbing or shooting weapons along with his tail, fangs, venom, speed, and potentially even his claws/hands. We have the flexibility to choose anything we want. :)
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 12:53 am
6-2 melee poison spear/spine
3-3 ranged bow
Movement perhaps should be 7
I think we can move ahead with this, unless we want to add a blade melee attack as well?

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 5th, 2018, 1:57 am

name wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 2:50 pm
The Naga is a venomous snake creature (specifically half cobra).
Is this mentioned somewhere? Neither them being venomous nor like a cobra is mentioned in their race description or the naga fighter line's descriptions, at least.
The_Gnat wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 1:50 am
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 12:53 am
6-2 melee poison spear/spine
3-3 ranged bow
Movement perhaps should be 7
I think we can move ahead with this, unless we want to add a blade melee attack as well?
It doesn't need a third attack, I don't think.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » December 5th, 2018, 2:36 am

The dandan/dendan fish/whale might be cool to have as an "extra" unit that's not in the faction, but in my opinion it's wholly unsuitable for a faction unit, because it would be incapable of leaving the water. No other faction has a unit incapable of moving on land. (Indeed, the only mainline units that are incapable of land movement are the ships and the tentacle of the deep, if I recall correctly.)
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 1:57 am
Is this mentioned somewhere? Neither them being venomous nor like a cobra is mentioned in their race description or the naga fighter line's descriptions, at least.
I assume his intention is to call back to the actual Indian mythology there. I haven't read anything to support that claim myself, but I suppose it might make sense. Even so, it's unlikely to be relevant to Wesnoth's interpretation of the naga.
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by ghype » December 5th, 2018, 10:51 am

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 12:53 am
6-2 melee poison spear/spine
3-3 ranged bow

Movement 7
how much hp/cost would such a unit have?

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Caladbolg » December 5th, 2018, 11:07 am

For the record, I'm on board with the latest Naga proposal.

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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Pentarctagon » December 5th, 2018, 1:33 pm

ghype wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 10:51 am
Pentarctagon wrote:
December 4th, 2018, 12:53 am
6-2 melee poison spear/spine
3-3 ranged bow

Movement 7
how much hp/cost would such a unit have?
I'm not sure. Would the naga unit be more in the vein of a regular fighter, or more like an orcish assassin type of unit?
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Re: Dunefolk balancing rework ideas - discussion.

Post by Temuchin Khan » December 5th, 2018, 5:26 pm

Pentarctagon wrote:
December 5th, 2018, 12:34 am
Making the new unit be a good fit is really what I think the main goal should be. If it's also really unique and different, then great, but fitting into the faction takes precedence, at least in my mind.
True, a Naga would probably be a better fit for the faction.

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