Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

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Cackfiend
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Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by Cackfiend »

So my latest game http://wesnoth.gamingladder.info/gamede ... %3A54%3A46 vs widowmaker80 made something very clear to me; Dwarves vs Undead is still very unbalanced.

I always had an issue with the MP devs nerfing the footpad dmg by 1 pt being their fix for this matchup as it has always been the most unbalanced matchup in wesnoth.

At first they had planned on nerfing their melee AND ranged by 1, but after some complaining that it made the footpad completely useless vs races other than undead it was then changed to only a melee nerf.

I think the perfect change for footpad would be to change its melee damage from Blunt to Slashing. or even piercing

This would make the Skeleton not take so much retaliation damage when its melees a footpad and it wouldn't really affect other matchups much at all.

Now obviously this would look funny with its club graphic, but if we get enough support it might eventually make it into mainline and could have its graphic changed. Or maybe we could even get an artist to make a knife for the footpad with animation for the ladder era.


please discuss

this is also posted on the Ladder forums: http://laddercouncil.proboards.com/inde ... z22luFG2vF
Last edited by Cackfiend on August 6th, 2012, 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TheScribe
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by TheScribe »

If you're spamming skeletons versus Knalgans you need to reconsider your strategy. I've never had any trouble with this, from either side.

IMHO, the Footpad isn't useless vs other races. Footpads exist for one reason in my strategy: high defense. I use them about the same as I would use a troll whelp as Northerners.
Sorta on a break from the forums ATM, have been for a while. If I was doing something for/with you and I haven't recently, that's why, I will be back soon hopefully.
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Cackfiend
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by Cackfiend »

I understand you're new here :)
"There's no love in fear." - Maynard James Keenan

I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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TheScribe
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by TheScribe »

A little, but not to Wesnoth. If you're saying that because of what I said, please explain further why you disagree, rather than just dismissing what I said.

However, if you're just mentioning it for no reason in particular then ignore the above.
Sorta on a break from the forums ATM, have been for a while. If I was doing something for/with you and I haven't recently, that's why, I will be back soon hopefully.
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AxalaraFlame
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by AxalaraFlame »

I understand he is not new here, but new to MP 1v1 games
You are the king of ladder after all... :lol2:

IMO, according to my MPgame arismatic-balance calculation(still continuing), I believe footpad is not the key to U v K balance; though their melee and range damage do shall get conversed, thus skeleton cuts them easier.
I believe the problem is not simply about Kna vs Und. Dwarves are hard to be balanced after all if they don't have any fire/cold/arcane damage, while undead balance would be tough forever if they don't have a real "tank", but overrelying on ranged weapons. This newly designed K v U match-up may solve some problems:
Dwarves:
Ulf: Mountain/Hill/Castle dodge rating+10%
Thunderer: +new weapon "Fire Stick", 12-1 fire-marksman.
Undead:
Ghoul: blade+10%/fire-10%,+4hp, +$1. It is determined to be undead's tank.
Ghost: +atk-melee 5*3, +10 physical resistances/-10 magical resistances, +3hp, +2$.
Skeleton: -3hp, -1$
Adept: +1hp, +2 arcane-range damage, +1$

I am still working on elves and drakes. This is also a tough match-up
Last edited by AxalaraFlame on August 6th, 2012, 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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lipk
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by lipk »

The reasoning sounds quite sensible for me, however, I personally never had problem with this. The footpad is annoying, sure, but on the other hand, Ghosts and Ghouls can be just as tough for the Knalgans.
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TheScribe
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by TheScribe »

No, I'm not new to mp 1v1. And the reasoning is okay, I just never personally had the problem with this.
Sorta on a break from the forums ATM, have been for a while. If I was doing something for/with you and I haven't recently, that's why, I will be back soon hopefully.
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AxalaraFlame
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by AxalaraFlame »

TheScribe wrote:No, I'm not new to mp 1v1. And the reasoning is okay, I just never personally had the problem with this.
Sorry for been distracting a little bit, but you shall give a try to NR's nightmarish level. You will find why the second scenrio is so notoriously hard to conquer :)

And back to the topic:
I did not find BIG problems on footpad too, only feel a little imperfect that their range/melee damage should be conversed.
Maybe because I am a lame ladderer :lol2:
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TheScribe
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by TheScribe »

The second scenario of NR is fun! Sure, footpad spam is the best way to win it, but I wouldn't say it was hard. (no, I'm not on nightmare difficulty, though I don't think that's what you meant by "nightmarish level". If it was, then sorry)

One other thing that needs to be mentioned is why the footpad has both his weapons as impact. Sure, switching one of them might improve balance (note the word might) but it wouldn't make sense. The footpad only carries a stick he found and rocks he picks up on the way. A dagger would kinda change that.
Sorta on a break from the forums ATM, have been for a while. If I was doing something for/with you and I haven't recently, that's why, I will be back soon hopefully.
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by Dunno »

lipk wrote:The reasoning sounds quite sensible for me, however, I personally never had problem with this. The footpad is annoying, sure, but on the other hand, Ghosts and Ghouls can be just as tough for the Knalgans.
^This. The only way to kill a ghost, especially one in a village, is to damage it enough for a ulfserker to kill it. I think it is good that knalgans also have a unit which can give undead some pain.
Oh, I'm sorry, did I break your concentration?
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Cackfiend
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by Cackfiend »

after reading this thread i think its pretty clear i shouldnt post balance changes to the general wesnoth forums anymore ;)
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D
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AxalaraFlame
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by AxalaraFlame »

:augh:
Hey!
@Cacky
That ain't be fair judgement! These guys seem to be posting newbie ideas, but I do give suggestions and work on it. Although I am only a 1500 ladderer, but I haven't played it for a long time. I am a not pro respectively speaking, but I have fought Cremey and enacui for fun many times before somehow.
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Kanzil
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by Kanzil »

Please ignore this post, it was unhelpful. Unfortunately, the delete button has disappeared(mods?)
Last edited by Kanzil on August 14th, 2012, 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
High over valleys in the red levelling rays -
In din of crowded streets, going among the years, the faces,
May I still meet my memory in so lonely a place
Between the streams and the red clouds, hearing the curlews, Hearing the horizons endure.
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AxalaraFlame
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by AxalaraFlame »

Kanzil wrote:Well, personally, I don't think there should be much arguing about it; this is a suggestion from one of wesnoth's best players, and is not really for discussion about the idea, but about how to implement it, and to garner enough support to do so. What he means is that this advantage is, whilst small to most, and negligible on most campaigns, between top players(not that I am one :lol2: ) it can make a vast difference.
:mrgreen:
Don't you know who's the guy posted this thread? He is the so called BEST PLAYER.
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Kanzil
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Re: Footpad Balance (Dwarf vs Undead)

Post by Kanzil »

Well I'm sure Dauntless, Rigor, Demogorgon and The Black Sword e.t.c would debate that...but yes, probably...and therefore as I said, It is probably something that should to be taken into account. Not only that, but it is true, as I have often found.
High over valleys in the red levelling rays -
In din of crowded streets, going among the years, the faces,
May I still meet my memory in so lonely a place
Between the streams and the red clouds, hearing the curlews, Hearing the horizons endure.
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