SX RPG ADD ON 4.9.10 - now on 1.10.x Server.

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
Hex
Posts: 161
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 6:08 am

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Hex »

Do you consider the wizards map harder or easier then the evil dead one?

Mabuse, how easy do you find doing the evil dead map?

What exactly is a clerics bonus on rage weapon?

I have a idea, ability "mercy", when you defeat units in defense, you leave them with 1 HP. Perhaps this could even be modifiable, something you can choose to have on or not, and even choose to use for offence or not (if you want to set up a kill for another unit)
Last edited by Hex on March 20th, 2012, 2:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Mabuse
Posts: 2239
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

rage bonus for clerics is +1 damage (and -40 gold for the rage-upgrade/rage slow upgrade)

EVIL DEAD map is pretty tough now.
it is really a good challenge.

i soloed it with a dwarven thunderer mage
(and some bosses (e.g. overlords) are extremely hard to beat with ranged units)
i died countless times.

i had not the time yet to play it with a 4 or 5 player team.
you can as well play wizard of war II on expert if you like.



ATM i IMPLEMENT and test following things:

1)
on Class selection (and level up):
leadership is replaced by fearless
heal+8 is replaced by heal+X

2)
Keys are shown in inventory menu and can be dropped

3)
other stuff i already forgot like working on some gfx for example.



to do:
1) dont display fearless and heal if the ability is already in use
2) add some more units to the era now (the units with leadership, elvish druid in MAX level era.)
Last edited by Mabuse on March 20th, 2012, 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Hex
Posts: 161
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 6:08 am

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Hex »

Mabuse wrote:rage bonus for clerics is +1 damage
You mean if you add rage or rage/slow to a attack, that attack does 1 more damage?

EVIL DEAD map is pretty tough now.
it is really a good challenge.

i soloed it with a dwarven thunderer mage
(and some bosses (e.g. overlords) are extremely hard to beat with ranged units)
i died countless times.
So you reloaded from save alot?
you can as well play wizard of war II on expert if you like.
But have you beaten wizards on expert yourself? Which one is harder in your opinion?

How do I confirm difficulty setting in game?

What did you think of my mercy ability idea?
Mabuse
Posts: 2239
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

Hex wrote:
Mabuse wrote:rage bonus for clerics is +1 damage
You mean if you add rage or rage/slow to a attack, that attack does 1 more damage?
the shop weapon does +1 damage, the weaponspecial cost 40 gold less
Hex wrote:
EVIL DEAD map is pretty tough now.
it is really a good challenge.
i soloed it with a dwarven thunderer mage
(and some bosses (e.g. overlords) are extremely hard to beat with ranged units)
i died countless times.
So you reloaded from save alot?
in short: yes. pretty often if you ask me.
Hex wrote:
you can as well play wizard of war II on expert if you like.
But have you beaten wizards on expert yourself? Which one is harder in your opinion?
havent beaten wizardII map yet for myself (only with a prototype unit powered with 12000 gold :) for testing purposes (i should have done that earlier ;))
but as far as i know its possible - some players beat the map on expert.

wizardII map is pretty brutal ;)

i promise you that i will beat the map on expert sooner or later - after i finish the actual map i am working on. this is the demise of a developer.

there were several reasons why the map was ever beaten by me:
when it came out we extensively played it, but the OLD system collapsed at the high stats.
(and we came pretty far)

after that RL things kept me busy.
and now my limited time is ued up be developing stuff for sxrpg.

when the new map is fisnihed, i wil extensively playtest it and then play play play ... on the other hand - i know me, and i already have an idea for the nex map.

I was even tempted to play eveil dead in a 4 player team on expert today rather than making stuff. :)
Hex wrote: What did you think of my mercy ability idea?
of course i see the uses for that.
- (almost) dead enemies block and prevent other units from attacking player
- better control of leveling units

it wont get implemented though.

since:
- dont like the idea that nearly dead enemies block path
- there are already enough and more useful abilities (and i dont wanna clutter the abilities menu)
- creeps should get their chance to kill players ;)
- with this ability you could endlessly defend in a narrow pass wit a shop in the back and nobody could do anything to you
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Hex
Posts: 161
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 6:08 am

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Hex »

How do I confirm difficulty setting in game?
- with this ability you could endlessly defend in a narrow pass wit a shop in the back and nobody could do anything to you
Then a slight modification then, if a unit has 1 HP from start of turn and gets hit, or 9 for to deal with regen units, it dies, mercy trait or not.
Mabuse
Posts: 2239
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

theres no way to confirm difficulty setting in a game.
(ok, you may see from the game-save how much gold the hero had.)

But ok, i see thats another thing i have to implement.

btw, no, i dont like that mercy thingy. if you are in a sitation where you think "well, i guess i need it hard now", then something has gone wrong in the turns previously. i cannot put an ability for every mistake a player can make ;)

what about an "i win" button for 2200 gold. would be pretty useful
and could save a load of time

seriously, if you dig yourself in, then defense should be at least a bit challenging.
and if the enemy then come swith 5 berserkers and empty then all on you .... evil dead !
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Hex
Posts: 161
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 6:08 am

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Hex »

When you buy the items that increase mana max and mana regen by 20%, do those work just then, or does it increase all future max mana and mana regen by 20% too?

Can you find such items anywhere on the evil dead map?

Or in short, is there any reason to wait to buy those items?

Do you get more out of each chest/kill with less players?
Mabuse
Posts: 2239
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

Hex wrote:When you buy the items that increase mana max and mana regen by 20%, do those work just then, or does it increase all future max mana and mana regen by 20% too?
as soon i afford them - which is usually not too early.
and yes it increase all future max mana and future mana regen, acts as a multiplier
(max mana/mana regen is simply multipied by 1.2)

as a rule of a thumb i'd say not before you upgraded your main wepaons with specials (combinations of specials)

this rule of a thumb applies for all shop items (except cyan/red potions for rangers/rare exceptions)
(for that reason i delayed their availablility for a bit)
Hex wrote: Can you find such items anywhere on the evil dead map?
Or in short, is there any reason to wait to buy those items?
evil dead map is seriously short on items.

the mana staff, mana ring, cleric staff as well the cuirass cannot be found on maps
(and the ring of defense can be found on maps, but is cumulative, so you can buy it without any regret - though i would not do that too early too)

Hex wrote: Do you get more out of each chest/kill with less players?
no. the increased starting gold makes things easy enough ;)
since damage increases not linear.

for example if you just double the strikes and damage of a weapon its total damage output quadruples.
but this is of course needed, since if you play with less players you dont have a team mate that weakens the baddie before you can finsih it

so while things get easier for less players, there is of course also a disadvantage - since a 5 player team, although the heroes are weaker in general and really rely on cooperation, earns in total more gold per kill and per chest.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Hex
Posts: 161
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 6:08 am

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Hex »

Does the power of demons you summon increase as the game goes according to your max mana amount?

It says that certain AIs units don't give gold when killed after a certain turn, but I have yet to come across units that didn't give gold when killed that I can recall. How can I know what color units belong to AI 6 and AI 7 anyway?


I was having serious trouble with the damage calculation thing, even moving the cursor over enemies resulted in seriously long delays and game freeze up. So I turned on the no luck mode, but that has lots of its own issues. Some attacks against the enemy resulted in less damage to you then other attacks the enemy is weak against, this might be precision focus, the extra damage of the focus against the enemy causing the battle to end in your victory sooner does not seem to be calculated in right or something.

And then there is really weird situations, like where I attack a ancient ghost with my fireball and my attacks are doing 1 damage each and the ghosts attacks aren't hitting me. Maybe it is using the wrong attack to calculate? This result would make sense if I were using my ice attack since it has 100% ice resistance. I am sure I used the right attack, and this has happened twice now. I will check it further.
btw, no, i dont like that mercy thingy. if you are in a sitation where you think "well, i guess i need it hard now", then something has gone wrong in the turns previously. i cannot put an ability for every mistake a player can make ;)
I have no idea what the hell you are saying here, this has nothing to do with correcting for player mistakes.
what about an "i win" button for 2200 gold. would be pretty useful
and could save a load of time
I don't like being mocked. This suggestion is nothing like a "I win" purchase.

Plus, you say this idea would make things too hard, other ideas of mine would make things too easy, well maybe they will cancel each other out. Aside from which, challenge can be adjusted on the map level too.

seriously, if you dig yourself in, then defense should be at least a bit challenging.
If you dig yourself in, you can get screwed out of the game, enemies increasing in power but you remain stationary killing a few of em at a time, not a good idea. (except maybe just to wait till change of day)
and if the enemy then come swith 5 berserkers and empty then all on you .... evil dead !
That map really has too many berserkers on it, most annoying of all is plague flies, they have skirmish, they are super fast (10-11 moves), they have 60 defense on everything, and really strong attacks. They make it impossible for one to just play pure range units. I got a 2 sided team of Great mage of mage class, and Master at arms, warrior class(so I could berserk with slow), the master at arms with its own skirmish is able to blaze ahead and berserker every range unit with flaming swords, and the plague flies, then the great mage can come along and blast the melees so the Master at arms doesn't get clobbered. If it weren't for that skirmishing melee, I don't see how a range unit could stand a chance on this map, badly designed I think. Flaming sword with slow on it and 30% pierce resistance did help my great mage survive a few early attacks, but only for a short time, afterwards it was death from nowhere(since range can't increase melee), which is why both units now have 12 moves on them, so they can see such threats and deal with them appropriately.

One thing I did was get all resistances up to 30%, then got intelligent trait, along with steadfast and dauntless on both. Though not immediately. Even though it meant the armor item in the shop (which I didn't buy of course) and the 5% resistance ring I found latter on was worthless. Not sure I would have held back with the resistances even if I had known about the ring, now if there is a second one somewhere I might regret not holding back on resistances (is there a second ring somewhere?), anyway, with both very different classes at 50% resistance all around, it feels cheap and the units seem very similar, the main difference is range verses melee. And despite the Master at arms having a decent blade attack, I rare do use it.(accidentally put slow on it twice somehow though, yes slow is listed twice on the attack, it really should remove the option of buying traits already on the attack)

I got the great mage because its attack is actually better the shop by a amount that is significant, and the master of arms great dodge is the only thing you can't buy, and gets even better with two defense rings on him for 80% defense on much of the terrain, and 70 on most of the rest (except 60 on plain cave). To use some dwarf unit is pointless because it can't really get resistance higher then these two, and one can't practically fight off of mountains all that much on this map.

If I had it to do over again, I might consider using the master at arms as my range mage unit too. But then there are only so many dodge rings(I'd give it to the melee fighter for berserker), and great mage does have a nice little attack, still might be worth it though. Maybe a single unit game with rogue class Master at arms that can play both roles in one unit, but then the upgrades would be more expensive. I'd also miss the magic, and especially being able to summon demons, which allows me to fetch stuff from other parts of the map.(and compounded by only having 1 unit)

BTW, I am on turn 124 and the game momentum seems to be in my favor, though its a hard slog and required many many reloads (most of em due to plague fly attacks) and a few restarts along the way as I learned the ins and outs of the map and best way to exploit the store. The challenge interests me. But I am left feeling even more so that base unit doesn't matter much, and this era is badly designed for team playing. (my particular combo aside, which works well, but requires great coordination not commonly found in lobby games, and would not work so well with dividing starting gold between 5 people) Once I beat this, I doubt I will play it again considering your rejection of my suggestions. Though even finishing this game is troubling considering my problems with "noluck" mode.

Idea: If you wanted team playing, but feel the SX version of leadership is over powered, then have it give level 4 worth of leadership (instead of 5) to surrounding friends, but not to itself. Two players with leadership can lead each other though.

Its like you have minimal and maximums for defense and resist.
With defense, you can get anything to 50 easily with terrain walking and agility, the max would be 70 short of defense rings on map, and only certain elves on forest, certain dwarves on mountains and dodge units have that.

Resistance minimums and maximums basically begin and end with 50% on everything, especially with your absurd half price no slots taken minus resistance and punishing of units with particularly high armor with less slots, plus you make resistance even more expensive if one wishes to get it past 60% resistance (BTW, the text inaccurately says the price goes up past 70%) and it just goes up from there. Why shouldn't one be allowed to put all there resistances in one basket if they wish? It's not like they can get all, or even several, resistances to 100%, there wouldn't be enough armor slots for that, and having alot of resistance in one spot, but little in the rest would be a bad idea, unless you really worked the team playing somehow.

Speed can just be purchased up, though at least it keeps going up in price, but not by alot, and movement is super easy get down to 1 in all major terrains that will matter.

And weapons usually made pointless by shop weapons which are usually just as good or better as any level 3s.

So what is left that makes units unique? Not much, mostly just the SXrpg classes and how you spend your gold (though not alot of different ways to do that, and its only different in the beginning), but for unit "frame" only a few units with extremes, like great mage or man of war, matter, in default anyway. In ageless it is a different story, since there are so many units in ageless that defy balance and also that have unique abilities that defy your mins and maxs on everything.
Mabuse
Posts: 2239
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

Hex wrote:Does the power of demons you summon increase as the game goes according to your max mana amount?


summoned demons are one level stronger than the actual creeps
(creeps strengh is controlled by a variable, which increases every turn. every 10 turns the creep strengh is adjusted (in revive mode player death also increases this variable).
summoned demons are 10 turns ahead in strengh of the creeps)

so basically summon-demon gives the caster the possibility to create its own creeps

Hex wrote: It says that certain AIs units don't give gold when killed after a certain turn, but I have yet to come across units that didn't give gold when killed that I can recall. How can I know what color units belong to AI 6 and AI 7 anyway?
ok, this is already request i gotten before (via pn).

future versions will unfog the leaders in question, so players can localize them, and also know the color then (the name of the leaders in question is "ai 6" / "ai 7")
Hex wrote: I was having serious trouble with the damage calculation thing, even moving the cursor over enemies resulted in seriously long delays and game freeze up. So I turned on the no luck mode, but that has lots of its own issues. Some attacks against the enemy resulted in less damage to you then other attacks the enemy is weak against, this might be precision focus, the extra damage of the focus against the enemy causing the battle to end in your victory sooner does not seem to be calculated in right or something.
atm no luck mode is considerd to be working.

there is a cosmetic bug about a multiplier is not DISPLAYED correctly (for the defending unit).
but if you recalculate you wil find that the displayed damage VALUE is correct.

then there are other possible bugs when bosses didnt get unluckyfied and stuff.

i will check out the focus thing though
(by checking for a bug in the multiplier table, or a bug ingame, or a bug how the multipliers are applied)
Hex wrote:
btw, no, i dont like that mercy thingy. if you are in a sitation where you think "well, i guess i need it hard now", then something has gone wrong in the turns previously. i cannot put an ability for every mistake a player can make ;)
I have no idea what the hell you are saying here, this has nothing to do with correcting for player mistakes.

Plus, you say this idea would make things too hard, other ideas of mine would make things too easy, well maybe they will cancel each other out. Aside from which, challenge can be adjusted on the map level too.
the mercy ability gets rejected since i think:

-it makes things too easy
-its just too complicated and kinda "unwesnoth"
("hey, buy that ability that makes it imossible for creeps attacking you to die, but they can die on the next turn if they have 8 Hp or less" .....)
-i want to keep it the good old way it is, that creeps wil die when they get killed while attacking you, after all this is one of the dangers you have to face when you end your turn in range of a creep crowd - no matter how cool it would be and that you coudl defend with it so much better
-its hard to estimate a balanced price

seriously then i would rather implement a VALOR, which gives you some HP for a killed enemy,
but i still have to think about the value (probably a percentage of the HP of the unit), and its also hard to estimate its costs. probably as much than regeneration (150 gold) or even more.

in any case im not in a hurry to add new abilities
Hex wrote: That map really has too many berserkers on it, most annoying of all is plague flies, they have skirmish, they are super fast (10-11 moves), they have 60 defense on everything, and really strong attacks. They make it impossible for one to just play pure range units. I got a 2 sided team of Great mage of mage class, and Master at arms, warrior class(so I could berserk with slow), the master at arms with its own skirmish is able to blaze ahead and berserker every range unit with flaming swords, and the plague flies, then the great mage can come along and blast the melees so the Master at arms doesn't get clobbered. If it weren't for that skirmishing melee, I don't see how a range unit could stand a chance on this map, badly designed I think. Flaming sword with slow on it and 30% pierce resistance did help my great mage survive a few early attacks, but only for a short time, afterwards it was death from nowhere(since range can't increase melee), which is why both units now have 12 moves on them, so they can see such threats and deal with them appropriately.
as a sidenote: how coud the mage get a flaming sword?
i guess its a torch.

but well, if you as a player say the berserkers are annoying and develope strategies to deal with them - everything is ok on my side as a developer.

yes, SPEED is essential to be able to deal with these units.
you start out with 8 moves, leter get 10 and then 12 and then its important to be on par with the fastest units.

in the early game you might be able to fence off a zerker with a sidearm, in later game getting caught by a zerker means death for a ranged unit.

i may consider to reduce the terrain defense of the flies, now that you mention it.
Hex wrote: One thing I did was get all resistances up to 30%, then got intelligent trait, along with steadfast and dauntless on both. Though not immediately. Even though it meant the armor item in the shop (which I didn't buy of course) and the 5% resistance ring I found latter on was worthless. Not sure I would have held back with the resistances even if I had known about the ring, now if there is a second one somewhere I might regret not holding back on resistances (is there a second ring somewhere?), anyway, with both very different classes at 50% resistance all around, it feels cheap and the units seem very similar, the main difference is range verses melee. And despite the Master at arms having a decent blade attack, I rare do use it.(accidentally put slow on it twice somehow though, yes slow is listed twice on the attack, it really should remove the option of buying traits already on the attack)
summary:
both units are equal on initial (positive) resistance (ok, the ranged unit has higher, but is no warrior)
both units gets intelligent
both units get dauntless and steadfast
both units are designed to get with these upper both abilities 50% in every category

and now you blame me that both are the same resistance-wise

well, no wonder, that both are the similar resistance wise, since they both have similar resists and both goth their armor-slots distributed in a similar way.
Hex wrote: I got the great mage because its attack is actually better the shop by a amount that is significant, and the master of arms great dodge is the only thing you can't buy, and gets even better with two defense rings on him for 80% defense on much of the terrain, and 70 on most of the rest (except 60 on plain cave). To use some dwarf unit is pointless because it can't really get resistance higher then these two, and one can't practically fight off of mountains all that much on this map.
i prefer dwarfes on the other hand.

and that you find good arguments for "your" choice and i have my reasons to use "my choice" - it seems all ok for me.

without all these many options, dwarfes woudl be the only unit to chose anyway.
(besides the attack of the dragonguard (40-1 ranged) is pretty aweseome too.)
Hex wrote: If I had it to do over again, I might consider using the master at arms as my range mage unit too. But then there are only so many dodge rings(I'd give it to the melee fighter for berserker), and great mage does have a nice little attack, still might be worth it though. Maybe a single unit game with rogue class Master at arms that can play both roles in one unit, but then the upgrades would be more expensive. I'd also miss the magic, and especially being able to summon demons, which allows me to fetch stuff from other parts of the map.(and compounded by only having 1 unit)
well, the rings are just an add, give them to the unit it needs. if no unit can make a use out of it, then they still do not any harm.

other maps have more armor items. and then they may after a while accumulate higher than 50% so you feel an slight effect.
Hex wrote: BTW, I am on turn 124 and the game momentum seems to be in my favor, though its a hard slog and required many many reloads (most of em due to plague fly attacks) and a few restarts along the way as I learned the ins and outs of the map and best way to exploit the store. The challenge interests me. But I am left feeling even more so that base unit doesn't matter much, and this era is badly designed for team playing. (my particular combo aside, which works well, but requires great coordination not commonly found in lobby games, and would not work so well with dividing starting gold between 5 people) Once I beat this, I doubt I will play it again considering your rejection of my suggestions. Though even finishing this game is troubling considering my problems with "noluck" mode.
well, if you are on turn 124 i would say you have the map almost beaten. congratz for this.
(if you post the last turn and a (probably corrupted) savegame you get your place in the hall of fame.)

also, i think its normal once you beat a map that you feel "i never play this again".
after all, this may change later anyway. or you simply wait for the naxt map, or play another map until you beat it.
i think this is ok, as lng you feel and beat the challenge and had a bit fun while doing it - everything is good.

as long you think bas unit matter much "aside form you personal choice" while i thnk the same but use other units, i guess its all ok.

and btw, "base units" does matter, especially on EXPERT, but of course no in the sense that you can win the game only with one particular unit, using one particular build.

imo, the design goal is to make the game playbale with as much units as possible.
still there are differences and thus unit choice is important especially on expert. i dnt think you can win the game with every unit on expert.
Hex wrote: Idea: If you wanted team playing, but feel the SX version of leadership is over powered, then have it give level 4 worth of leadership (instead of 5) to surrounding friends, but not to itself. Two players with leadership can lead each other though.
leadership gets replaced by fearless now
healing+8 (not healing+4) get replaced by heal+X
regeneration gets replaced by regen+x

also added new units to the sx era that have leadership/healing/regen

on other maps (wizardII) there are leadership items anyway, i wont include leadership in the shop, nor keeping it as ability

leadership=fearless makes it for me interesting enough already, i must admit ;)
Hex wrote: (BTW, the text inaccurately says the price goes up past 70%) and it just goes up from there. Why shouldn't one be allowed to put all there resistances in one basket if they wish? It's not like they can get all, or even several, resistances to 100%, there wouldn't be enough armor slots for that, and having alot of resistance in one spot, but little in the rest would be a bad idea, unless you really worked the team playing somehow.
no, the test is correct it say the price goes up past 70% which is true. past 70% the cost of an armor-slost is 60gold (not 30 gold). and past 90% it is 120 gold. and below 0% it is 15gold. normal price (0-70%) is 30 gold.
Hex wrote: Speed can just be purchased up, though at least it keeps going up in price, but not by alot, and movement is super easy get down to 1 in all major terrains that will matter.
on evil dead. other maps may have much more difficult terrain.
and then you still want to use the fencer and not bat-only.

and speed is costly enough. as long it keep the players from having all maxed out movement early everything is alright.
Hex wrote: And weapons usually made pointless by shop weapons which are usually just as good or better as any level 3s.
well, i see it otherwise:
im happy that the shop weapons make sense at all.

and they really have to be ALMOST as strong as good level 3 weapons, since the heroes will get to level 3 sooner or later. (as said the shop waepons are balanced against 11-4 (for melee). they they are displayed in shop higher is because of class and trait bonus - which ALSO APPLIES to the dfault weapons)

the reason not to buy a shop weapon is simply for money saving purposes
(why buying the arcane sword if a paladin has it for free on its max level)
Hex wrote: So what is left that makes units unique? Not much, mostly just the SXrpg classes and how you spend your gold (though not alot of different ways to do that, and its only different in the beginning), but for unit "frame" only a few units with extremes, like great mage or man of war, matter, in default anyway. In ageless it is a different story, since there are so many units in ageless that defy balance and also that have unique abilities that defy your mins and maxs on everything.
well, "unique" is a Shining word. SXRPG has not the intention to make the units UNIQUE.
unique is what you make out of them.

you see it too idealistic, SX RPG (and other SX's too) want to make the maps playable by a broad variety of units. and as long the unit the player want to have gives him a slight advantage (and if its only in the beginning) then its all ok with the uniqueness.

and as said, if you take resistancewise similar units, and give them the same build up armorwise, then dont be worried about if they turn out being similar
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
User avatar
vultraz
Developer
Posts: 960
Joined: February 7th, 2011, 12:51 pm
Location: Dodging Daleks

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by vultraz »

At first I didn't really read about the mercy suggestion, so I thought it would be something like, pay the enemy gold not to kill you, and if you can't pay...tough. To quote mabuse, "evil dead!" ^_^
Might that be an option?
Creator of Shadows of Deception (for 1.12) and co-creator of the Era of Chaos (for 1.12/1.13).
SurvivalXtreme rocks!!!
What happens when you get scared half to death...twice?
Mabuse
Posts: 2239
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

btw, i just started a 4 player run on evil dead, expert
shaman (torch+fireball+default weapon),
thunderer (torch+energywave+default weapons),
ghost (hammer of rage+enchanted sword+default),
dwarf warrior (hammer of rage+enchanted sword+default)
(lvl1 start)

Strategy so far:
dwarf and ghost gather chests, while thunderer and shaman hold the front line
(and killed the ai6 leader)

im on turn 30 now, ai 6 died some rounds ago, and all is looking pretty neat.
the plague flies arent really a problem (even for ranged units) as long you stay outta their range.

well, the biggest problem in wesnoth is still luck, if you miss a 90/95% CTK (which happens way too often) you are in trouble.

it was not a problem in my test game - but i noticed a bug in evil dead - one cave openeing doesnt open, due to a faulty terrain (the frist altar in north triggers this)

so i decided to load up yet another version, with the fixed EVIL DEAD map

summary of the changes to come:
-----------------------------------

- fixed evil dead map bug (slight bug)

- on Class selection (and level up):
leadership is replaced by fearless
heal+8 is replaced by heal+X
regeneration is replaced by regen*x
dauntless is replaced by "ingame dauntless"
steadfast is replaced by "ingame steadfast"

these abilities dont cost ability slots

- if a unit has a replaced ability, this ability is no longer available for buy in abilites menu
- added more units to the SX era (drake flameheart, oricsh leader, elvish sylph, dwarvish guard, troll)
- Keys are shown in inventory menu
- keys can be handed over to adjacent allied players
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Hex
Posts: 161
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 6:08 am

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Hex »

Oops, I see I made a mistake with the resistance prices.

'If you make units the same, don't be surprised if they are similar'

The point is, the mechanics lend and encourage units to being similar. From rewarding getting ride of negative resistances and punishing getting resistances high, to giving a round 40% defense with any terrain no matter how low a units is normally on that terrain, and 50% with agility. Even terrain it couldn't normally travel on, is treated like a natural for that unit.

It's not hard to make units similar, and it's a good way to succeed. I see nothing in what you said that makes which unit "frame" you choose matter, so you focus the money in one spot with one unit, and another with another unit, it all ends very similar most of the time with little regard to a units natural abilities. I came up with a number of good ideas for addressing these issues, and you dismissed them out of hand and with replies that suggested you didn't even read them properly. I hope you will read them when I win as I stand by them now still.
Mabuse
Posts: 2239
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

there are three most important points:

1)
after all BALANCING as we know it in SX (ask an SXC developer) is to implement things that BALANCE the actually unbalanced units out.

while you suggest to exxagarate the imbalances even more..

look at SXC: here the resistances are completely new calculated at game start, i n order to balance the units. (i dont prefer that since i want to keep the unts as they are)

2)
your supposed to be changes

a) cannot be balanced in any way.
(example HP)

b) are definately not an enrichment, instead will flatten things
(example speed

c) will make the game as it is unplayable, with the exception of just a few units
or at the cost of HIGHER stats
(example resistances)


3) never change a winning team

SX RPG balance works good, units have slight differences and some units may suit better into certain environments than others. beside that a normal map is playable with every UNIT.

the differences in SXRPG are done via classes.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

lets us see the thing with the percentage increasement for HP.

in my system you get a fix value for a fix price. differences in initial HP are seen as a bonus or a malus which is usually within acceptable boundaries (at best there are differences of about 350 gold from lowest HP units to highest HP units)


lets take your proposed HP increase should be a mixture of percentage of actual HP and a fix value.

first of all: to balance that in any this assumes that high HP unit have small resistances or small base terrain defenses to even that advantage out in long run. BUT: such a "rule of a thumb" doesnt exist. units are completely different. so implementing this gives right away the possibility that there is a certain unit that wil greatly profit from it. other units will get weakened.

also: keeping an SX game interesting all the way long is no easy task. the start is usually exciting and once you get the hang its often getting a bit easier. if this is not the case then due to careful design and balance.

with your changes after a certain point the stats of the players will simply explode and there is need to either adust the creep stats after it (= higher) or the game gets boring. eiher way. its not good.

i'll keep the fix values for HP upgrade since this is balanceable.
you must know that SXRPG is balanced against POTENCIALLY UNKNOWN BASE UNITS

what about some numbers?
did you make a head over these chnages or can i calculate it will out for ... or how did you imagibe the things will go:

you cry: "i want percantages ! "
and i spend a month breaking my head how to balance this crap?

i think not. :)

additionally there no need for it. as we see there is already a 350 gold gap between the two most ectreme units (spectre and drake enforcer) -

-----------------------------------------------

about speed:

given that speed is important and there is need for always increasing speed over the course of a game (the maximum creep speed is about 15, maximum boss speed is 20), and i want to stay this a factor in a long game (that creeps may surprise you with an attack, and due to this you must keep up on par with the speed)

to avoid overabuse and keep things interesting: just set the number of maximum adds to 15. so a 4mp unit is therorically slower than the most maxed out boss. an average 5 move unit has the same speed.

to fully max out moves a hero must spend 1200 gold


here the downfall with your system (only 1-3 extra movey sme classes get +1/+2 moves is:
movement gets maxed out early and then it is no longer a factor in the game.
of course the creeps/bosses also cannot get faster anymore then.

at minimum the heroes should be on par with the bosses. a slightest punishment for extra slow heroes (4 mp units) is ok.

and of course there is aleady punishment cost wise:
lets us take speed: a dwarf that wants to get 12 moves total needs to spend 360 gold
a bat that wants to get 12 speed needs to spend: 60 gold

thats a difference of 300 gold.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

about resistances:

unless you even out missing resistances with redicoulusly high HP it shoud be clear that you cannot renounce on resistances. in yur game you used resistances to the best even optimzing your complete build for them. getting intelligens for the two armor abilities and stuff.

and after playing the game as it meant to be and barefully succeed (im honest: 125+ turns isnt the best result actually, but that doesnt really matter - its just for the books)

you dnt really suggest anymore to give each hero just 1-3 armors slots and make negative resists more expensive and even sost armor slosts. come on dude.

btw, a drake enforcer (from the example above has good HP bonus, but to nullify his armor (he has -80% neg resists) he must pay 120 gold, for getting the same armor as a ghost has by default (ghost has 230 total be default, drake enforcer has 100 by default) he must spend abother 390 gold. granted, the drake is a bit more versatile then. so for getting on the same level armorwise as a ghost the drake has to pay about 500 gold (ok, he has also 350 gold more HP).

so drake is more versatile armorwise, but ghost is way cheaper and has superior movetype.
i ghost wins direct comparison. but i wouldnt solo a "lava"-environment map with a ghost i guess
(another example why unit choice does matter)


what about playing evil dead (= moderate map after all) without armor?
i mean you really has the opportunity to show me that this actually is a good idea.


---------------------------------------------------------------


i could say more but its clear where i am coming from.
your suggestion would make units a tad more unique probably (not that anyone except you cares), but at the expense of a balanced game.

by forging the game-machanics round unblanced units (wesnoth units arent balanced against each other, even less if you just take single units out of a STRATEGY game and put it in an RPG environment and even more less if there exists an unknown number of units with unknown stats and unknown abilities) is nonsens.

feel free to make fruther suggestions how to keep more unit identity and make unit choice more interesting
(as you see i implemented that default abilities are taken over and be used as ingame abilities)

but there is no way i will throw over the entire balance of the game just becasue you "feel" it would be more exciting then

i think you can trust me, since i know what im doing.

but feel free to make tables and give me some number that show me that everything you suggested is balanced. (tbh you can save the work though: it wont happen)

i do usually some math and look at some numbers before i implment something
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Mabuse
Posts: 2239
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

seriously: isnt it cool that you can even play a wose?

example build for wose:
--------------------------

as usual: get cave+hill
instead of buying HP you nullify your negative resists for 120 bucks
megaregen is for free
as abilities you buy soulstealer and agility (which is really needed since the wose has such awful dfenses)

key here is only to nullify your armor instead of getting HP
(if you think you can renounce on it ON START, then put the money into blade+impact armor for clobbering melee units)

woses have also ambush ability

wose may be even OP :D
(but nah, it isnt - its just an underestimated, playable unit)
Last edited by Mabuse on March 22nd, 2012, 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.
Post Reply