SX RPG ADD ON 4.9.10 - now on 1.10.x Server.

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Hex
Posts: 161
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 6:08 am

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Hex »

Ok, I am at a screen facing off with a group of plague flies with my great mage.
The plague flies have -10 resistance to fire, and +20 cold resistance.

My great mages fireball attack is
101-21, blessed, slow, precision focus.

Ice wave:
94-20

Against the plague flies,
Fireball:
155-21
Plague flies do 24 damage against me.

Icewave:
56-20
plague flies 15 damage.

So either way the plague flies hit me with one round of their attack, but with the fireballs precision focus damage amplification makes me suffer 62% more damage in the end with the plague flies. Considering the fireball does like 3 times the damage of the ice wave, it seems like more then precision focus is being incorrectly calculated in these calculations.

I would note that with noluck off, the system always autoselected fireball as the attack to use against the plague flies since that would be the best option. Now autoselects cold wave the most.

I buy this expensive precision focus attack attribute, and noluck turns it into not but a liability.

I have a save.

atm no luck mode is considerd to be working.
I told you I witnessed it royally messing up in its damage, are you calling me a liar? Why would I lie about such a thing? Fine, I got a save of this too.

Ok I am facing against the ancient ghost now. Check out the funky ending of these damage calculations for fireball against the ghost:

Fireball 81
Precision focus *1.5
Blessed *1.1
80% damage *0.85 (0.85 is 85% damage, but that is what it says)
Dreadful sight *0.67
Time of day +25% (or *1.25)
Defender resistance verses fire *0.6

=1 (according to noluck) Though my PC calculator says it should be a hair above 57

Now the math for arcane damage is fine, perhaps dreadful sights calculation adds 1 more calculation then the algorithms can handle with all these other factors? As I said before, I have a save of this too so call me a liar no more please.

As far as uploading those saves, I got to find where they are being kept on my linux system first. But here are some screen shots in the mean time.
Attachments
Focus problems, Icewave.png
Focus problems, fireball screenshot.png
Messed up Noluck damage calculations.png

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

i see.
well, yes, thats the additonal factor that kicks in and messes things up.

and calm down nobody is calling you a liar.
i have witnessed these things before, and not in no luck mode (but also because a ton of multipliers kicked in)

the no-luck mode was considered to be working fine IN THE PAST.
unfortuanately this was before i was aware that too many factors will mess up the calculation
(as it is with the "blessed" special that adds another factor and got added later)

another thing to fix.
its clear that one factor must get deleted, but i fear there are much more of these factors.
for example if you would have a leadership item - that would be even another factor.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Hex
Posts: 161
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 6:08 am

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Hex »

Well by my telling you of the problem I witness with my own eyes, and then you dismissing it, saying "atm no luck mode is considerd to be working.", that is like calling me a liar. Note that you said "atm=at the moment" not "in the past", oh and also you should put acronyms in caps or periods between the letters.(the caps solution is more common online because it is easier/quicker)


Can't you fix the problem with too many calculation factors resulting in 1 damage? Or are you saying this is specifically a wesnoth bug?
Last edited by Hex on March 22nd, 2012, 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

so far:
the third screen you showed is clearly messed up. no need to discuss this.


Questions
i have a few questions about the first two screenshots (fireball and icewave against plague flies)

so if i see corrctly the plagueflies in the first screen do 11-3.
do they really 11 - 3 (or 15 like you said in the post)

i ask because there is a problem with the damage-multiplier display for the defender, but the damage gets normally calculated. in this case the "real" terrain multiplier would have been 0.65 (did you stand on flat terrain). so if this was the problem then it is ok.

but if the flies did 15 and not 11 like displayed then something is wrong.



so i just ask to clarify -

did the plague-flies did the damage (11) shown on the screen?
Or a different number ?
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

Hex wrote:Can't you fix the problem with too many calculation factors resulting in 1 damage? Or are you saying this is specifically a wesnoth bug?
well, the problem is too many factors. for the third screen.
thats what i guess at least -

sure i could start now sorting out damage multipliers, since what we have here is a STABLE version of wesnoth i dont think that anything will be changed about this.

the solutions that come to my mind:
- deactivate no luck mode
- sort out multipliers

however, since i encountered the same problem in normal-mode i guess i and up in the need of sorting out two multipliers, that will be ONE ingame-multiplier (like blessing) and i fear i must shut down the no-luck-mode for now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT:
ahh, after some thinking i correct myself:

i only need to sort out one mulitplier to fix the "third screen issue"
so i order to keep the no-luck mode - since i like it,
i will create a workaround for the "blessing"
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Hex
Posts: 161
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 6:08 am

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Hex »

BTW, edited my last post a bit.


so if i see corrctly the plagueflies in the first screen do 11-3.
do they really 11 - 3 (or 15 like you said in the post)
They do the damage I said, those other numbers don't seem to be related do actual damage done(and even if they were, those numbers are bigger with the cold wave too). You can see my mages starting HP 250 in both examples at the top next to the picture of the mage, and you can see in the calculation page the final HP after attack next to the yellow bar at the bottom. I did the actual attack with both and those numbers are what I end up with afterwards.

The only difference in the two examples are which attack I use, everything else is identical.(and yes, on flat terrain) So I simply suffer 62% more damage because of precision focus with fireball, even though the fireball attack is much bigger and the plague flies are notably more vulnerable against it resistance wise.

If you must drop something, blessed seems like a good candidate, it doesn't serve any real practical purpose that I can see. Although you could just fuse its effects with another effect and reduce the number by one, which is maybe what you are thinking with that last post? I still don't see any purpose/point of "bless" weapon attribute though.

And I did not encounter this problem with noluck mode off against ancient ghost, but that is maybe because with it on, it adds defense value to the damage calculations, the last straw.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

Hex wrote: The only difference in the two examples are which attack I use, everything else is identical.(and yes, on flat terrain) So I simply suffer 62% more damage because of precision focus with fireball, even though the fireball attack is much bigger and the plague flies are notably more vulnerable against it resistance wise.
ok. i see. well, of course this can be explained since in the fireball example the focus kicks in ;)
the 1.5 multiplier also gets added to the enemy.

so instead of 11 you get 11x1.5 damage which is about 16
this is correct, it has nothing to do with the size of your attack or something.

btw, did you notice that he noluck muliplier for the defender is displayed with 0.45 (but it should be 0.65), if you do the calc, the "real" multiplier is 0.65 (as it shoud be since you stand on flat terrain), but the display is wrong. nothing oyu must worry about though.

however, the difference between 11 for the ice-wave and 15 for the fire-ball-focus is the focus factor of 1.5 which also applies to the enemy ;)
(like charge)
Hex wrote: If you must drop something, blessed seems like a good candidate, it doesn't serve any real practical purpose that I can see. Although you could just fuse its effects with another effect and reduce the number by one, which is maybe what you are thinking with that last post? I still don't see any purpose/point of "bless" weapon attribute though.

And I did not encounter this problem with noluck mode off against ancient ghost, but that is maybe because with it on, it adds defense value to the damage calculations, the last straw.
i see. well, this is good to know since i know now that i must get rid of the blessing, since it messes up the luck mode.

however, i like blessing - the purpose of blessing?
add 10% damage to an attack


thx for reporting that issue !


NOTE:
--------------
btw, i must say that although i cannot realize all of your ideas, you have been most helpful and im pretty satisfied with the changes i made based on your suggestions.
if it would have been just for me, i would have never "replaced" the default abilities.
but now that this is implemented, i like it very much. it definately add more variety to the units.

this is the most recent changelog:
--------------------------------------

- fixed evil dead map bug (slight bug)

- slight ROGUE buff: strikes -10 gold (total:190)
- new Class: ROGUE MAGE
- ROGUE CLASS renamed: ROGUE WARRIOR

- Mages, Clerics and Rogue Mages get only +1 Ability Point
(formerly +2). Due to a miscalculation Magic Users got one
Ability point too much.

- on Class selection (and level up):
leadership is replaced by fearless
heal+8 is replaced by heal+X
regeneration is replaced by regen*x
dauntless is replaced by "ingame dauntless"
steadfast is replaced by "ingame steadfast"

these abilities dont cost ability slots

- if a unit has a replaced ability, this ability is no longer available for buy in abilites menu
- added more units to the SX era (drake flameheart, oricsh leader, elvish shyde, dwarvish guard, troll)
- Keys are shown in inventory menu
- keys can be handed over to adjacent allied players
- rename of some abilities
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Hex
Posts: 161
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 6:08 am

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Hex »

Mabuse wrote:
the 1.5 multiplier also gets added to the enemy.
I know that.

My thinking was, in real combat, the damage you suffer on a enemy you easily kill would be less with precision focus despite its increase in damage to you because it allows you to kill the enemy over 50% faster (thus the enemy unit has that much less time to do damage to your unit) But I suppose since the enemy has so few range attacks, and so much health that most of your attacks need to connect, that is why. While normally you need precision focus to guarantee kills, that isn't a problem in noluck mode.

Are you able to fix the issue with no luck and units like the ancient ghost, where it will work on my current game? I won't restart.

As far as the rest, I will get into it some other time.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

Hex wrote: Are you able to fix the issue with no luck and units like the ancient ghost, where it will work on my current game? I won't restart.
im afraid to say that your game is probably broken, since theres no way to fix the save game.
(unless you incorporate changes into the save manually)

something that you can do right now and what would be easy: hack your save-game and delete the blessing specials from your weapons manually.

you must think positive: on yur next trun you will finsih the game about 30 turns earlier because you just get the things you really need. also the map wil be fixed then ;)


however, now that the issue is known, its possible to sort it out.
i just need to think about how to replace it.

blessing had the purpose to strenghen the weaker ranged attacks (in comparison to melee)
a +10% damage factor is +10 damage if the base is 100 for example. thats around 400 gold. have it or not.


SOLUTIONS
--------------

1) now i coud get tricky, and simply exclude the blessing multiplier from the damage-calculation and instead - add 10% to the damage AFTER a successful hit

2) replace it with some other weapon special
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by MCP »

I'll try a Wose any day, any time. Probably will do Wose/Cleric simply because I love magic movement.

Ambush doesn't work on the AI, they know where you are regardless of being hidden by trees or not.

Also, wow there were a lot of posts.



Mabuse, I guess you haven't fixed the mobile bosses in WoW2 who spawn with Luck based attacks during No Luck Mode?

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

MCP wrote: Mabuse, I guess you haven't fixed the mobile bosses in WoW2 who spawn with Luck based attacks during No Luck Mode?
not yet.
but now that you mention it, i will do that, onn ai side turn, ai wil skim through all its units on map, and if no luck is not installed yet on them it will do.
that should do the trick.

btw, any ideas how to replace the the blessing special?
havent any ideas yet. if you have something you always wanted, now there is a chance.

i think about a VALOR special, that gives some HP on defense if an enemy dies while attacking.
however, if find that rather useless for a ranged attack.

then the next update will come out before my new maps will hit.
(be prepared for sme extra nice creatures :))
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

MCP
Posts: 518
Joined: May 23rd, 2005, 5:23 pm
Location: California

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by MCP »

I don't know about Blessing since I haven't tried it yet.

About VALOR, I think it is redundant with Regen X, and therefore pointless. In my opinion of course.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

MCP wrote: Mabuse, I guess you haven't fixed the mobile bosses in WoW2 who spawn with Luck based attacks during No Luck Mode?
ok, checked.

Code: Select all

[event]
name=turn refresh
first_time_only=no

[filter_side]
side=6,7,8,9
[/filter_side]

[store_unit]
[filter]
side=$side_number
            [not]
                [filter_wml]
                    [modifications]
                        [object]
                            name="noluck"
                       [/object]
                    [/modifications]
                [/filter_wml]
            [/not]
[/filter]
kill=no
variable=unitia
[/store_unit]

{FOREACH unitia j}
[fire_event]
	name=unluckify_unit
	[primary_unit]
		x=$unitia[$j].x
		y=$unitia[$j].y
	[/primary_unit]
[/fire_event]
{NEXT j}

{CLEAR_VARIABLE unitia}
[/event]

now i have to code that UNFOGGING of AI 6 + 7 leaders, and replace blessing with something useful.
(the only good thing is blessing itself wasnt too useful)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

btw, if ambush doesnt work, then i can get rid of all the hiding abilities that just clutter up a units interface.

check !


EDIT:
------------

As a sidenote:
i fixed that blessing thing.

background:
by now we are limited to 3 external damage multipliers (leadership and time of day are internal)
one for the attacker (e.g. charge or focus), one for defender (e.g. dreadful sight, caution).
since no-luck-mode also works by using a damage-multiplier, any more damage multipliers will collpase the calculator.

there are 4 ways to influence and attack:

- damage multiplier
- time of combat (increasing number of combat rounds)
- chance to hit
- strike multiplier

in the old version blessing was a damage-multiplier, which screwed the engine if no luck mode was activated.
increasing the number of combat rounds is too powerful for a ranged unit (means damage is increased by 100%)
CTH is also no option since this is already covered by magical, focus and precision, and precision should be at the very end of the CTH scale.

so the only things that remains is to make blessing increases strikes by 15% on offense.

check !

so blessing is now a tad more powerful by increasing strikes by 15% on offense

Muhahah. i love it when there is a workaround on some things ;)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: SX RPG ADD ON - now on 1.10.0 Server.

Post by Mabuse »

Hex wrote: I would note that with noluck off, the system always autoselected fireball as the attack to use against the plague flies since that would be the best option. Now autoselects cold wave the most.

I buy this expensive precision focus attack attribute, and noluck turns it into not but a liability.

I have a save.
btw, yes, this is fully understandable.

with luck OFF the high damage fireball had the best chances to kill the enemy lets say about 99,9%
while the ice wave had lets say 97%

so system chose always fireball.

with no luck ON, the system now recognizes that both attacks have a 100% kill chance, but, due to focus, the fireball gets more damage in return. so ice wave is always selected.

autoselection is not always the best way to go (in normal mode) when you want to avoid unnessesary HP losses. in normal mode you must sometimes make a decision, reduced killing chance or more damage in retaliation. autoselect always prefers higher kill chance, except you are in danger to die. no-luck mode makes the things overall easier.

btw, still the fireball has by a large degree the higher damage output which will serve you well against foes with more HP ;)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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