Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

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Sapient
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Sapient »

Another idea would be to give no extra units to either side when an unrecognized faction is used.
I know there are a lot of players who like to try odd eras on standard maps. Of course it won't be totally balanced, but giving one side free units (and not the other) is silly considering how easily the code could be adjusted to give them something within their expectation level.
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by SigurdFireDragon »

mich wrote:I think that a default map must also not be completely unbalanced/unplayable with not standard eras. Probably the idea of giving a standard set of units to all the non standard or recognized factions can be the the right middle. Probably you just need to add an [else] tag inside your [switch].
Doc Paterson wrote:Again though, if people desperately want an option for Khalifate in there, for the purposes of testing them, and a generic set for all other factions, I'll do it.
Sapient wrote:Another idea would be to give no extra units to either side when an unrecognized faction is used.
I know there are a lot of players who like to try odd eras on standard maps. Of course it won't be totally balanced, but giving one side free units (and not the other) is silly considering how easily the code could be adjusted to give them something within their expectation level.
As another alternative to consider, what about giving a non standard faction 4-5 units that are random and non-repeating from that faction's recruit list? (might have to be done in a sync'ed event like side 1 turn 1). That way the map would make available the starting units feature for other factions with more variety and better fitting for the faction than a generic set would.

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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Anonymissimus »

Following the suggestions on IRC, there are now no units created in case that one or both of the players have a faction other than one of the factions in the default era. If the default era is used, the units are guaranteed to be created (this was not the case I think). (r52583)
If a set of units/locations for the Khalifate is suggested, support can (I think should, to support them getting balanced) be added.
Note that this commit doesn't touch balance, you won't even notice if using the default era. In fact, I don't make commits affecting balance since it can only get me involved into overheated balancing discussions such as this one. ^_^
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Doc Paterson »

Anonymissimus wrote:Following the suggestions on IRC, there are now no units created in case that one or both of the players have a faction other than one of the factions in the default era. If the default era is used, the units are guaranteed to be created (this was not the case I think). (r52583)

Note that this commit doesn't touch balance,
Well, the units are placed as they are to mitigate certain potential abuses, including a possible village steal by player 1. This is part of what I was talking about when I was describing some of the ways in which specifically placed starting units could allow for map setups/dimensions/spacings that might otherwise be unbalanced. But like I said though, there will very likely be other abuses occurring with non-default units and eras, so we probably shouldn't worry too much about a village steal in such situations.

However... :)

I've already begun work on unit sets for P1/P2 Khalifate. It is customized with them in mind, and will also appear for any non-mainline faction used.

I'm not sure if committing it at this point though would break the freeze....
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Anonymissimus »

Doc Paterson wrote:and will also appear for any non-mainline faction used.
Yes, can be added/changed easily.
Doc Paterson wrote:I'm not sure if committing it at this point though would break the freeze....
I already broke compatibility with other wesnoth versions on the mp server. And it's not possible to fix it without doing so. Well, we declare it a bug that Khalifate support wasn't added so it doesn't break the feature freeze. 8)
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Doc Paterson »

So-

Here we go, the new config. The unit set is designed with Khalifate in mind, but will show up for any non-mainline faction.

I've tested it a bit, and there don't seem to be any problems. Check it out though, and if you don't see any errors, feel free to commit it.
Attachments
2p_Hornshark_IslandConfig.zip
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Rigor »

i think the fuzz is because the new hornshark is a lot wackier than all the other mainline maps with those free starting units.

for me, it is not entirely clear how valuable they really are and i have no guesstimate about the impact of the possible loss. i think this bothers most people, really. the map itself is nice i must confess, but i will have to admit that im more comfortable with the old hornshark (that could have been perhaps cut on its borders so the water area would be decreased). why? actually because of the point i just suggested. im not sure if there are other reasons as well (like, i know the map very well by now), because the gameplay feels ok. its definitely a different map now and the design and fighting is unusual but fine.

coming back to the extra units: when i start a game i usually know whats up and how to play but this "units with very different traits" is making the evaluation of my standing at any given time highly unfathomable for me. i guess i just like to decide which units i want to lose and whom to keep or recruit and not bother with loyal units that have *actually* an infinite value because they increase your army with no costs and have special traits that help you to capitalize in attacks.

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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Doc Paterson »

Rigor wrote:i think the fuzz is because the new hornshark is a lot wackier than all the other mainline maps with those free starting units.
Well, of course. I think you yourself know that's it's always been an uphill battle trying to get 1v1/ladder players to try anything new. :lol2:
for me, it is not entirely clear how valuable they really are and i have no guesstimate about the impact of the possible loss.
No worries, my guesstimate will compensate for your lack of guesstimate. ;) They are necessary (read the epic post for details).
i think this bothers most people, really.
Of course it does, those ornery conservatives! 8)

I think for people to feel eternally comfortable, we'd have to just keep making maps that are small variations of the same dynamic. Particularly when people are playing for ratings, the instinct is almost always towards maps that are "safe," familiar, and comfortable. The thing is that we have so many of those now in default, that I feel it's time to try some new things with competitive 1v1. You know I've written novels on this; no need to rehash.
the map itself is nice i must confess, but i will have to admit that im more comfortable with the old hornshark
See above. ;)
its definitely a different map now and the design and fighting is unusual but fine.
Maybe we should have this quote appear as a message before the match begins. :D
coming back to the extra units: when i start a game i usually know whats up and how to play but this "units with very different traits" is making the evaluation of my standing at any given time highly unfathomable for me. i guess i just like to decide which units i want to lose and whom to keep or recruit and not bother with loyal units that have *actually* an infinite value because they increase your army with no costs and have special traits that help you to capitalize in attacks.
This paragraph is a little confusing to me- I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. Is there a steeper learning curve on this map compared to other default 1v1s? For sure. About the unusual traits, all you really need to do is look once- and also, I don't think they influence things very much.
Now get out there and get training.... :lol2: No doubt anyone who's practiced on this map will have a nice edge in KOTF 2...... :whistle:
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by tekelili »

Doc Paterson wrote: No doubt anyone who's practiced on this map will have a nice edge in KOTF 2...... :whistle:
If you give a hint of wich players will play KOTF2, maybe some unexpected recruits could start training already :whistle:
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Anonymissimus »

Doc Paterson:
Alright. Added your unit sets.
It is now so that if one of the factions is not one of those in the default era that player gets these replacement units, instead of both players getting no units.
Please check out the scenario after the next release.
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Doc Paterson »

tekelili wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote: No doubt anyone who's practiced on this map will have a nice edge in KOTF 2...... :whistle:
If you give a hint of wich players will play KOTF2, maybe some unexpected recruits could start training already :whistle:
I have been thinking about an open registration, or at the very least, an invitational with a larger list than last time. (16 maybe? If we do that, consider yourself invited.) ;)
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Doc Paterson »

Anonymissimus wrote:Doc Paterson:
Alright. Added your unit sets.
It is now so that if one of the factions is not one of those in the default era that player gets these replacement units, instead of both players getting no units.
Please check out the scenario after the next release.
Sure thing, and thanks. :)
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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by grrr »

Doc Paterson wrote:The map can still be adjusted of course, as far as terrain placement goes, but ***these starting units […] are actually the tools that make atypical terrain formations and village placements possible. I think that this is something that even some top players have missed, and more than anything, this is the point that I'd most like people to understand.***
I really enjoyed that epic post, though I had to actually *read* most of it to find this most relevant part. I want to thank you here in public for always trying out new innovative ways of solving the balancing problem in Wesnoth. And not just trying out, but pushing your theories as far as possible, like an academic thesis, just to verify its value and correctness.

BHG was such a map were I first realized that to a greater extent, where it first was the impassable center, then the TOD changes, then the forward keeps, then preflagged villages, then map widening on older maps, now extra starting units. These are all ideas *you* came up with (perhaps with help/input from others, but still), in order to have a better toolbox for map balancing, and that's just damn impressive.

Too bad you still haven't written a book about Wesnoth map balancing yet ;-) I would actually buy it, even if only as a decoration for my cupboard.

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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Jozrael »

Doc, that epic post made me go download .14 to try this out.

/excited.

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Re: Hornshark Island (new)... something needed to be changed

Post by Doc Paterson »

grrr wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:The map can still be adjusted of course, as far as terrain placement goes, but ***these starting units […] are actually the tools that make atypical terrain formations and village placements possible. I think that this is something that even some top players have missed, and more than anything, this is the point that I'd most like people to understand.***
I really enjoyed that epic post, though I had to actually *read* most of it to find this most relevant part. I want to thank you here in public for always trying out new innovative ways of solving the balancing problem in Wesnoth. And not just trying out, but pushing your theories as far as possible, like an academic thesis, just to verify its value and correctness.

BHG was such a map were I first realized that to a greater extent, where it first was the impassable center, then the TOD changes, then the forward keeps, then preflagged villages, then map widening on older maps, now extra starting units. These are all ideas *you* came up with (perhaps with help/input from others, but still), in order to have a better toolbox for map balancing, and that's just damn impressive.

Too bad you still haven't written a book about Wesnoth map balancing yet ;-) I would actually buy it, even if only as a decoration for my cupboard.
Thanks so much for your kind words, grrr- It's nice to know that all of this map work is appreciated. :)

And as for the book- I'm sure one could be compiled, if you want to sift through the forums. :lol2: Or maybe we should just create a 6 hour documentary series on Wesnoth map design.... 8)
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