[mainline] Loyalist Bowman

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Cackfiend
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[mainline] Loyalist Bowman

Post by Cackfiend »

I think its time to rebuff the Loyalist Bowman a little bit and bring him up to 5-2 melee. Back when it was 6-2 melee I can see the point of when it was strong at day it did 9-2 and that was OP. But considering that now the Orcish Archer is buffed to match the Loyalist Bowman's 6-3 pierce, but the Orc Archer keeps its Fire Arrow and Low XP requirement its time for some Bowman love.


It is easily the most underused Loyalist unit and buffing it +1 melee damage would go a long way.

What do you think?
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ZhuQ
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Re: Loyalist Bowman

Post by ZhuQ »

Yeah, I can understand this. Support.

ZhuQ

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Re: Loyalist Bowman

Post by Elvish_Hunter »

Moved to Ideas' Forum.
Here there are the corresponding changelog entries:

Code: Select all

Version 1.5.4:
 * Units:
   * Balancing changes:
     * Decreased the ranged attack of the Bowman from 7-3 to 6-3.
Version 1.5.2:
 * units:
   * balancing changes:
     * increased the ranged attack of the Bowman from 6-3 to 7-3
     * decreased the melee attack of the Bowman from 6-2 to 4-2
     * decreased the cost of the Bowman from 15 to 14
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bumbadadabum
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Re: Loyalist Bowman

Post by bumbadadabum »

Comparison:

Bowman Orcish Archer
Cost 14 = 14
HP 33 > 32
XP 39 < 30
melee 4 > 3
range 6 = 6
leadership fire attack

When led by a Lieutenant:

5-2 melee
7-3 range


Which makes it about equal to the Archer, except for xp, which may help. BUT:

Longbowman
51 HP > 43 HP CBM
69 XP > 80 XP
8-2 > 4-3
10-3 > 8-3


Soooo. They are pretty balanced IMO.

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Re: Loyalist Bowman

Post by Haart »

leadership
I don't think that it's fair to count leadership in. Leutenant isn't only leader loyals may get; besides, it's not like all other units of loyals, drakes and rebels were balancing in account only for leadership units.
I'm not native english speaker so, please, excuse me for using comma at random.

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Re: Loyalist Bowman

Post by Dixie »

balancing units vs units is always bad. You should provide proof that they do need this buff and/or that it doesn't unbalance this or other match ups.
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Re: Loyalist Bowman

Post by Cackfiend »

Elvish_Hunter wrote:Moved to Ideas' Forum.
Here there are the corresponding changelog entries:

Code: Select all

Version 1.5.4:
 * Units:
   * Balancing changes:
     * Decreased the ranged attack of the Bowman from 7-3 to 6-3.
Version 1.5.2:
 * units:
   * balancing changes:
     * increased the ranged attack of the Bowman from 6-3 to 7-3
     * decreased the melee attack of the Bowman from 6-2 to 4-2
     * decreased the cost of the Bowman from 15 to 14

I dont know why you posted this change log since its no longer valid. The bowman was nerfed again after this down to its original 6-3 ranged attack. I really wish you didn't move this as no one reads the Ideas forum and ive had great success in the multiplayer forum posting about unit change ideas =/
LightFighter wrote:Comparison:

Bowman Orcish Archer
Cost 14 = 14
HP 33 > 32
XP 39 < 30
melee 4 > 3
range 6 = 6
leadership fire attack

When led by a Lieutenant:

5-2 melee
7-3 range


Which makes it about equal to the Archer, except for xp, which may help. BUT:

Longbowman
51 HP > 43 HP CBM
69 XP > 80 XP
8-2 > 4-3
10-3 > 8-3


Soooo. They are pretty balanced IMO.

comparing it when led by a lieutenant is quite a ridiculous way to balance loyalist units

the fact is orc archers are way better value now compared to loyalist bowman because of the fire arrow and xp requirements

Dixie wrote:balancing units vs units is always bad. You should provide proof that they do need this buff and/or that it doesn't unbalance this or other match ups.
the proof is that you RARELY see loyalist bowman used. you really think going from 4-2 to 5-2 would be unbalancing in any matchups?
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Coffee
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Re: [mainline] Loyalist Bowman

Post by Coffee »

I'm in favor of increasing the melee attack of the loyalist bowman from 4-2 to 5-2. I've been playing Wesnoth 1.6,1.8-1.9 and found them to be pretty average compared to spearmen, etc.

It might sound strange, but I think it would be good against woses. Loyalists have mainly pierce attacks and the cavalrymen do not move over mountains and mages are not always at hand. Many a time I can remember trying to finish a wose with bowman melee (yeah, I know mages are there too).

Would also be good against dark adepts, making you feel not quite as bad for recruiting bowmen against undead :P

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Re: [mainline] Loyalist Bowman

Post by AlexanderK »

Coffee wrote:I'm in favor of increasing the melee attack of the loyalist bowman from 4-2 to 5-2. I've been playing Wesnoth 1.6,1.8-1.9 and found them to be pretty average compared to spearmen, etc.
No. Spearman can kill dwarvish ulfserker, but bowman not. This will increase his chances to kill dwarvish ulfserker in duel.

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Re: Loyalist Bowman

Post by Reepurr »

Cackfiend wrote:comparing it when led by a lieutenant is quite a ridiculous way to balance loyalist units

the fact is orc archers are way better value now compared to loyalist bowman because of the fire arrow and xp requirements
It could be argued that an Elvish Archer is better than either of them, because for 3 gold you get excellent forest defences and an extra 2 damage overall (both at range and in melee compared to the Bowman, actually). Or that the Dark Adept far trumps them both, 16 gold or no, considering the comparative damage output - and you can't argue a DA's superiority against Drakes.

In fact, if you checked all of the units that take similar roles, you'd find a couple of seemingly unbalanced match-ups, I'm sure. The Dwarvish Fighter, for instance, is probably fairly good at smushing Skeletons, considering that hammer of his, but he's at more of a loss with a Cavalryman breathing down his neck since he has difficulties hurting it.
It's still balanced.
Cackfiend wrote:
Dixie wrote:balancing units vs units is always bad. You should provide proof that they do need this buff and/or that it doesn't unbalance this or other match ups.
the proof is that you RARELY see loyalist bowman used. you really think going from 4-2 to 5-2 would be unbalancing in any matchups?
Perhaps it's just me, but I use Bowmen a lot against Drake Clashers, or in mirrors where I'll be fighting horseback riders. I'm not the best loy player out there, but I'm pretty sure they're useful against at least two factions.

Also, you could argue that if loyalist bowmen really are extremely rarely used, why is this change needed when they'll just sit at the back of the recruit list, twiddling their thumbs?
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Re: [mainline] Loyalist Bowman

Post by artisticdude »

Like Dixie said, I fail to see why the bowman's stats keep being compared to those of the orcish archer. Units aren't balanced against units, factions are balanced against factions.
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The Black Sword
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Re: [mainline] Loyalist Bowman

Post by The Black Sword »

Factions:
Undead- bowman useless
Elf - rarely used, only person to shoot is elf fighter who gives fair retal anyway, generally better off to use mage/spear/cav.
Loyal- mirror
Orc - sometimes useful to have 1 in your larger army, could certainly play without it though
Dwarf - rarely used, again mage generally better to range people and cav/spear/HI does quite well vs dwarves in open anyway.
Drakes - Finally a matchup they're useful in!

So, the only faction matchup that actually matters is vs drakes. Against everyone else, particularly orcs, the bowman might become a bit more useful which will add more variety, which is a good thing IMO.

I don't think it would break the drake matchup either, strong ones would do 5-2,4-3 which is not bad retal vs saurs at night, that is really the main talking point IMO. Clashers couldn't care much about 1 extra damage on retal.
I don't see a need the buff but it might be nice to see a few more archers.

I agree there's not much point in comparison with the orc archer btw, but something about 3 archers all costing 14g and doing 6-3 bugs me.

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Re: [mainline] Loyalist Bowman

Post by bumbadadabum »

The bowman is more of a unit you want to protect enough for it to level IMO. I believe adding a bit of HP would balance it.

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Re: [mainline] Loyalist Bowman

Post by Cackfiend »

The Black Sword wrote:Factions:
Undead- bowman useless
Elf - rarely used, only person to shoot is elf fighter who gives fair retal anyway, generally better off to use mage/spear/cav.
Loyal- mirror
Orc - sometimes useful to have 1 in your larger army, could certainly play without it though
Dwarf - rarely used, again mage generally better to range people and cav/spear/HI does quite well vs dwarves in open anyway.
Drakes - Finally a matchup they're useful in!

So, the only faction matchup that actually matters is vs drakes. Against everyone else, particularly orcs, the bowman might become a bit more useful which will add more variety, which is a good thing IMO.

I don't think it would break the drake matchup either, strong ones would do 5-2,4-3 which is not bad retal vs saurs at night, that is really the main talking point IMO. Clashers couldn't care much about 1 extra damage on retal.
I don't see a need the buff but it might be nice to see a few more archers.

I agree there's not much point in comparison with the orc archer btw, but something about 3 archers all costing 14g and doing 6-3 bugs me.
thanks for the input TBS, finally someone who is more informed has an opinion
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I'm the guy who's responsible for 40% Gliders in all hexes... I can now die a happy man. =D

soul_steven
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Re: [mainline] Loyalist Bowman

Post by soul_steven »

I didn't post here however I do agree a slight nerf is in order to help him out... 1 more damage wont make him super op like he was in the 1.2 days... next question is should the orc archer need more xp to level (imo yes) i suppose thats for another thread though...

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