Ghost buff

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cookie
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by cookie »

Lone_Isle wrote: @Rigor

Your objection that ghosts would level faster is exactly the same reason why I think something like this should be done: lvl 2 ghosts are exciting and rarely seen right now and we should see more of them to get a better idea of the real balance effect they have. I do not think that they are "scary" as much as "I finally get a pay-off for the 20g I spent".
You just can't decide/want the unit to be nerfed or empowered just because it is rarely seen or 'exciting'.
So I rarely see a levelled up wolf does it mean something? Probably not, but 'I just wasted 17g. THERES SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS UNIT!'
I rarely see a levelled up horseman. Does that mean something? Not really. 'I LOST 24g! THIS UNIT IS CURSED! CHANGE ITS RNG!'
I RARELY SEE A LEVEL 3! 'Change the exp for kings please?'
Get my drift? If you apply your reasoning to the ghost, how is that fair and just? Or reasonable at least.

And FYI, I have seen several level 2 ghosts on the Multiplayer. I also have got several level 2 ghost many times on Multiplayer. So you're argument isn't just bias but ...
Sorry for crushing your sparks of hope again...
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Reepurr
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by Reepurr »

Darn, I was going to attach a replay of me versus Knalgan AI, using only ghosts, but unfortunately "The uploaded file is empty".

All I can really say, then, is that I had 5-6 Wraiths at the end, it was an absolute pushover, and that it only lasted 23 turns.
That's a level up every 4 turns, and I was playing default settings.
"What do you mean, "a dwarvish dragonguard with marksman is overpowered"?"

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Insinuator
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by Insinuator »

Lone_Isle wrote:Your objection that ghosts would level faster is exactly the same reason why I think something like this should be done: lvl 2 ghosts are exciting and rarely seen right now and we should see more of them to get a better idea of the real balance effect they have. I do not think that they are "scary" as much as "I finally get a pay-off for the 20g I spent".
You know, I was agreeing with you until you said this. Wraiths ARE scary. In a recent MP game against Orcs, I sacrificed a great deal to obtain two Wraiths. These two Wraiths were literally unstoppable against my opponent's Troll heavy army. Their drain ability made them more than a match for any Orcish unit save the Archer. Against Drakes, they are virtually unstoppable. Even Burners fear a Wraith. Against Humans and Elves, only the Mage is a real threat. Against Dwarves, I don't even know what I would use.

My point is, do not underestimate the power of a Wraith. They really aren't that hard to get if you're not reckless with your Ghosts. I think the Ghost's cost should be reduced by one, but don't change their attack. And why the devil do you keep putting the number of attacks before the damage?! It is the other way around! Ghosts have 4-3 attack.

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Re: Ghost buff

Post by cookie »

Insinuator wrote: In a recent MP game against Orcs, I sacrificed a great deal to obtain two Wraiths. These two Wraiths were literally unstoppable against my opponent's Troll heavy army. Their drain ability made them more than a match for any Orcish unit save the Archer. Against Drakes, they are virtually unstoppable. Even Burners fear a Wraith. Against Humans and Elves, only the Mage is a real threat. Against Dwarves, I don't even know what I would use.

My point is, do not underestimate the power of a Wraith. They really aren't that hard to get if you're not reckless with your Ghosts. I think the Ghost's cost should be reduced by one, but don't change their attack. And why the devil do you keep putting the number of attacks before the damage?! It is the other way around! Ghosts have 4-3 attack.
As you have kindly pointed out.
Firstly Wraiths are almost "unstoppable" against a heavy troll army.
You stated that they are powerful when levelled up against Orchish archers, Drakes and their burners, everything against Humans (Loys) and Elves except for their mages and the dwarfs.
Then you state that getting level 2 ghosts aren't hard to get and to not underestimate the power of wraiths.

THEN WHY .. do you even try suggest to buff the ghost even more so to be cheaper by one?
Isn't your argument more positive to the side to keep it as it is.... seriously... *sigh*
:annoyed:
Extra Happy Smiley to make this whole post seem more less evil and mean! ^^
:lol2:
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Insinuator
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by Insinuator »

Cookie, you're missing the forest for the trees. Lone Isle brings out some good points for reducing the cost of a Ghost slightly. I agree with virtually everything he said except the part above. Unlike some, I'm not going to just consider one side of the argument, though. Furthermore, this discussion isn't about Wraiths, it is about Ghosts. None of what I said there applies to a Ghost. It is a far weaker unit than a Wraith, and rightly so.

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Re: Ghost buff

Post by cookie »

Insinuator wrote:Cookie, you're missing the forest for the trees. Lone Isle brings out some good points for reducing the cost of a Ghost slightly. I agree with virtually everything he said except the part above. Unlike some, I'm not going to just consider one side of the argument, though. Furthermore, this discussion isn't about Wraiths, it is about Ghosts. None of what I said there applies to a Ghost. It is a far weaker unit than a Wraith, and rightly so.
I think you're missing the point.
Wraiths are powerful, sure. But, why do you guys want more ghosts on the maps again... although they aren't the main units for their fraction and exist to have duties somewhat similar to a scout?
Lone_Isles Reasons.
Well the EXP reasoning.
I'm pretty sure you cut that out as just fine if played reasonably. The ghost unit has 18EXP which is quite low already. Lower costs wont help get more level 2's. If you think smart. thats 3 level 1 kills and 2 attacks on a level 1 unit.

The 'want people to hire more ghosts' reasoning. Lower 1g.
Wait how does 1g solve much to your 'problem'. Theres no reason why there should be so many of them on the fields anyways. The ghost is not a main unit for the faction and is like a scout. Therefore prices are supposed to be more expensive. Plus you get your moneys worth once you level it up. You guys also should know from that delightful post of Wraiths how it is super powerful. Then why should it be so easy to get a wraith in the first place as it is so so powerful.

Switch attack amounts.
Yay, Berserkers can never win. GG

The 'level 2 ghosts are exciting' reasoning.
...

And yes the level 1 should always be weaker than the level 2. Thats for pointing that out. I would've never figured. :annoyed:
Insinuator wrote:Furthermore, this discussion isn't about Wraiths
Yet you made a post telling us about wraiths and how not to under estimate them. Thanks genius. Btw, I was referring in your post. That the EXP isn't an issue and the gold cost is absolutely fine as you're getting your money's worth in the level two, just don't suicide the unit. Feel free to add to the reasonings of Lone_Isle though. :lol2:
Sorry for the repetitiveness and those aren't all of the reasonings. I'm just to sleepy to post. Laters ^_^
Bye says the cookie.

Insinuator
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by Insinuator »

cookie wrote:But, why do you guys want more ghosts on the maps again...
I did not say that.
cookie wrote:although they aren't the main units for their fraction and exist to have duties somewhat similar to a scout?
Your opinion, not a reason. "Main units" change depending on who you're playing against.
cookie wrote:I'm pretty sure you cut that out as just fine if played reasonably. The ghost unit has 18EXP which is quite low already. Lower costs wont help get more level 2's. If you think smart. thats 3 level 1 kills and 2 attacks on a level 1 unit.
"If I think smart"? That's funny considering that (A) Ghosts need 30XP to upgrade, (B) Even if they only needed 18XP, it would be TWO level 1 kills and a couple of attacks and (C) XP management is not really an issue here at all. I'm not sure why you're even mentioning it.
cookie wrote:The 'want people to hire more ghosts' reasoning. Lower 1g.
Wait how does 1g solve much to your 'problem'. Theres no reason why there should be so many of them on the fields anyways. The ghost is not a main unit for the faction and is like a scout. Therefore prices are supposed to be more expensive.
Again something I never said. And there is no rule that a scout must be expensive. Each unit's price is based, not on it's supposed role, but on it's functionality, effectiveness, and balance. Take Bats, for instance. Very cheap scout. Why? I'm sure you can figure that out. Another example are Footpads. Or Drake Gliders (in comparison to other Drake units). These are all "scouts" but are inexpensive.

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cookie
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by cookie »

For the first one, I was talking about Lone_Isle. Notice a generalization when you see it.
Secondly... Thanks for identifying that highly subjective comment. I don't think I got that when I wrote it.
Thirdly
Insinuator wrote: "If I think smart"? That's funny considering that (A) Ghosts need 30XP to upgrade, (B) Even if they only needed 18XP, it would be TWO level 1 kills and a couple of attacks and (C) XP management is not really an issue here at all. I'm not sure why you're even mentioning it.
(A)Sorry its 21XP not 30
(B) I meant 2. Thanks for pointing out my mistype. Clearly 2 is next to 1 and 3. :annoyed:
(C) Well it was mentioned previously on this thread.
Lastly of course but the creator of the thread did mention it. AND no it isn't a rule but a generalization.(Something I type often when sleepy) Sure. Anyways I was tired when I wrote that post.

But what are your reasons to switch the ghost attacks around anyways. You believe in everything Lone_Isle said beforehand (IIRC). But you never even gave or shown any solid proof that the ghost even needs the slight buff or anything changed to it. Clearly this thread is useless until you guys bring solid evidence that the GHOST is under powered or need a change.
Bye says the cookie.

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Practice
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by Practice »

Hi and sorry for my english, this is my first post on the forum.
cookie wrote: I rarely see a levelled up horseman. Does that mean something? Not really. 'I LOST 24g! THIS UNIT IS CURSED! CHANGE ITS RNG!'
Huh, I often see that a horseman(23g) is the first unit to level up in loyalist army. Probably because he is the one to finish the "job".

About ghosts:
cookie wrote: But, why do you guys want more ghosts on the maps again...
-1 gold on ghost, doesnt mean that will be more ghosts. There will be more gold for good composition with a few ghosts. Why 75% of UD games must be DA(+skelly archer very often) spam?
Because of its price, ghost can be replaced with cheaper units. Whats the use of the unit that can be, and even should be replaced by other units to win a game. Every unit should have own task in the game.This unit have one, but the task is not adequate for the price of the unit.
It would be cool if the UD army would be more diverse. This small change gives opportunity for new tactics. As Rigor said, it would be nice if we could test such a change in special era. Especially with new footpad nerf.

Insinuator
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by Insinuator »

cookie wrote:(A)Sorry its 21XP not 30
Ghost's unit file wrote: #textdomain wesnoth-units
id=Ghost
name= _ "Ghost"
etc..
experience=30
I'm sorry, but if you can't even keep the facts straight, I have difficulty accepting your opinion.

The Black Sword
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by The Black Sword »

Staying out of the debate but default multiplayer, which is where the factions are balanced, sets the xp modifier at 70%. Therefore ghosts have 21xp for all intents and purposes of this argument. Might want to apologise there :wink: .

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Re: Ghost buff

Post by Insinuator »

I'm very well aware of that. But that's not the standard XP. If you drop the cost of a Ghost by 1, it is Singleplayer that you need to consider first.

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Dixie
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by Dixie »

She's probably referring to a standard MP game where the exp requirements are usually 70%...

Edit: ninja'd, but I totally disagree with your comment. MP balance is much more delicate and sensible than SP. A 1 gold difference is much more likely to have a difference in MP before it does in SP, and if a scenario suddenly became unbeatable, you could still just tweak the scenario a bit, whereas tweaking MP balance is much more delicate...
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Insinuator
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by Insinuator »

Dixie wrote:MP balance is much more delicate and sensible than SP. A 1 gold difference is much more likely to have a difference in MP before it does in SP, and if a scenario suddenly became unbeatable, you could still just tweak the scenario a bit, whereas tweaking MP balance is much more delicate...
I agree that MP balance is more delicate. But Singleplayer is more important. Wesnoth was built around a singleplayer campaign and now features an entire sleugh of them. And with a change like this, you can't help but affect both. And "just tweak the scenario a bit" is a GROSSLY oversimplified statement. There are hundreds of scenarios with dozens of developers. This could affect the balance in all of them, either making them easier or harder. That means all those designers would have to tweak their scenarios too.

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Practice
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Re: Ghost buff

Post by Practice »

SP balance and MP balance is a whole diffrent thing. If we want to talk about SP ghost balance we should debate about specific scenario instead of unit. But i think there are other topics to talk about it.

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