SXRPG Replays

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Warfall
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Re:

Post by Warfall »

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Last edited by Warfall on July 6th, 2015, 4:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mabuse
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Re: SXRPG Replays

Post by Mabuse »

hey,

i often expierienced that players only find the units useful that fit into their strategy.
so it seems that you have good reasons for chosing bat.

and i always like to see that other strategies/ideas work.

bat is of course a highly mobile unit.
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Warfall
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Re:

Post by Warfall »

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roidanton
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Re: SXRPG Replays

Post by roidanton »

Since when does a Bat have magical? According to http://units.wesnoth.org/1.10/mainline/ ... 20Bat.html it does not or does drains get translated into magical? This is actually what I looked at and I thought you bought magical for this unit.

I'm also not saying it's terrible, but I think that there are other units which are doing better as a warrior - and Mabuse you're right about the personal choice of strategy thing - playing with an inferior unit really does not fit my style of play ;-)

Regarding abilities, I don't really see your problem here and what you mean with "especially as a warrior" - magical classes need more abilities because of spell book. If I remember correctly, then you get 4 abilities, so that's shield, regen, dauntless and hit&run, buy fearless and get steadfast in the temple library.

Dwarf Lord: intelligent, soul.

Paladin: cave explorer, no soul.

Wose: cave explorer, agility, no soul - the unit comes with regen, so you don't lose anything by buying agility.

Grand Marshal: cave explorer and soul, unit comes with fearless.

Wose is the only of those units that cannot get soul, but it has the highest resistances in the game. If you build your resistances right, then you can win this without steadfast, so it is not a required must-have ability.

You can argue about whether high defenses or high resistances are more important - but only after you can already easily beat all the bosses, against which defenses do not matter due of their "superiority" trait. Once you beat those, it's a valid question to raise whether you'll do better with high resistances or high defenses against all the normal creeps - which should be the majority of the enemies that you're facing. It's probably a close call if you compare the high-end units in each category.

However, note that a Wose gets 65% defense everywhere which is very close to your Bat's 75% - but a Wose gets 6 more total armor slots than your Bat! Even a Dwarf Lord gets 55% defense everywhere and 5 more armor slots.

You complained about having problems to kill some of the bosses - well, they all have 60% chance to hit you 'cause of their "superiority" trait no matter how high your defenses are and you always get 70% against them with a magical rage weapon, so your high defense is useless, but higher resistances would have significantly reduced your damage.

Things may have changed a bit in the new version, but I'd still consider another unit as strictly superior to your Bat - a unit which has even better defenses than your bat plus an additional melee strike plus an ability that you'd get for free later in the game but that could be extremely helpful early on; know which unit I'm talking about? Look at Master of Arms!

Regarding your turn 144, sorry can't look at this at the moment, this is a newly setup computer for testing with no Wesnoth on it.

Mabuse, you're right about personal play style and yeah, it's actually debatable whether high defense or high resistance is best and being super fast may actually be a viable strategy in this game. However, my impression was simply that Warfall came here complaining about several of the bosses being "very, very hard to kill", so I looked at that and tried to address problems that I saw to improve this.

From my personal style of play, having big trouble with killing the bosses and this super high turn count with two units (which is higher than my solo victory) were far from optimal, so my strategy here is to look for options to improve that. If I run against a unit that I cannot kill, then I evaluate what the problem is, is my damage high enough, am I taking too much damage due to wrong resistances, etc. This gives me an idea what needs to be fixed. Then I estimate how much this would cost and think about how I could get that additional gold. One thing I check first is whether all of those upgrades that I got were actually necessary, could I have saved some gold by not purchasing this or that, etc.

I found many such improvements - but he won the game with his strategy - so then, I did some reevaluations and came to the conclusion that it should have been possible to win this in less time with my suggestions applied. But maybe I missed something important from his strategy because I only looked at those individual save files and did not watch a full replay. So yeah, there is certainly a decent chance that things like his high movement allowed him to get more gold than he would otherwise have gotten, for instance.

You actually raised a very valid point with the personal style of play - because if you only look at individual turns and not a full game, then you only look at how your own stats look compared to those of the enemies and for ways how to improve those. In hindsight, I must also admit that it makes a huge difference how you perceive the replay that you're watching - I mean Warfall, if you posted something like hey look I have just beat ToB with a high defense unit and low resistances and it was amazing - then I would have watched your entire replay thinking oh cool what an amazing strategy. But I watched this with this picture in my head that you posted that list of "very hard to kill" units - including units that were very easy kills for me. So I thought uhm there must be something wrong here, let's try to find the problem.

Ok guys, was nice to learn and think about a new strategy - maybe I have really considered high-defense as wrong way too quickly because high-resistance worked out so well for me - time to sleep ...

Warfall
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Re:

Post by Warfall »

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jb
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Re: SXRPG Replays

Post by jb »

Regarding of "5 player" runs. Paso and I have beat each map several times with 5 units. It is much harder. Playing with 2 units was laughably easy after the difficulty of 5pl.

I do like the way it is balanced, considering 5 player to be the most pure for balance.
Spoiler:
Mabuse: I hope you release some new maps soon. Do you still have the scenario I created? It was 25% complete already, I was just unable to figure out how to scale enemies over turns.

cheers
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Mabuse
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Re: SXRPG Replays

Post by Mabuse »

@jb: yes, 5 player start is the hardest because the heros are so weak. and it requires really a good strategy.

but since 1 players is also valid, i do everything to make playing on low number heroes as hard as possible.

in late game, 5 player can be a devastating force though

the healing strategy you prefer is also noteable.

and yes, i still have the map :)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Warfall
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Re:

Post by Warfall »

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jb
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Re: SXRPG Replays

Post by jb »

but since 1 players is also valid, i do everything to make playing on low number heroes as hard as possible.
Yes, I agree. I like that difficulty varies. It adds good variety.
My MP campaigns
Gobowars
The Altaz Mariners - with Bob the Mighty

Mabuse
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Re: SXRPG Replays

Post by Mabuse »

nah, what can be always done is simply cut the gold down for the lower player numbers. any suggestions here?

but basically im happy that you can play it with 1-5 players - this is also fun. but it should be clear that in 5 player game the start is much harder. because of the low gold - and the required team play.

in later game, a 5 player team is imho a bit stronger since it recovers 5 times the mana (or less, depends on how muc mages you have) gets 5 times the gold of a killed creep. regenerates 5 times the health.

so i late 5-player game there are potancially more fireballs being fired at the bosses ;)
or more demons to be summoned - also healing is also a factor here.
(although thats not nessesarily may preferred startegy - but it works well - the first time i saw jb and paso playing i was shocked - they summoned demons, put them to extremely good use and healed also the demons and went with an incredible demon army through the level :))
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

Warfall
Posts: 126
Joined: March 28th, 2009, 5:55 pm

Re:

Post by Warfall »

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Warfall
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Joined: March 28th, 2009, 5:55 pm

Re:

Post by Warfall »

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iceiceice
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Re: SXRPG Replays

Post by iceiceice »

FWIW I feel the game has clearly been made much easier in recent patches -- I doubt it is possible to solo TOB in the version where rage is not addable. And dropped items have not even made it in yet.

Fire + arcane + cold cuirass would be extremely good. Right now you need to get a fancy ring or armor to get this effect, taking many turns to do so. If you can just buy in shop as well as pick up it will eliminate many of the difficult late game TOB decisions you have to make.

Warfall
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Re:

Post by Warfall »

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Mabuse
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Re: SXRPG Replays

Post by Mabuse »

Hmm,

i think i will just go for a simple gold reduction for the lower player numbers for some reasons:

first: less palyers mean a harder game, you have less players to divide, less players for healing and so on.

in solo play you must even fight all bosses alone. not like a mage soften the target before the warrior finishes it or something.

so more money is definately needed - from start on. that makes the unit of course more dureable and it can kill the creeps more easily.
but i think we didnt reach the limit how low we can go with the gold.

so the next version will come along with something like:

5 player: 850 gold
4 player: 950 gold (-50 gold)
3 player: 1100 gold (-100 gold)
2 player: 1300 gold (-100 gold)
1 player: 1700 gold (- 100 gold)

maximum player-death-chest gold: 215

in late game the 100 bucks less at start dont make any difference, but in early game it can make life much less convenient. and you need to think more about what you spend to achieve your build.
i still think soloing it is possible from what i have read in various threads so far, but it will be harder.

- clerics will lose their rage bonus

and item-drops will be adjusted after players-in-game. each player gives a 20% chance (cumulative) that an item is dropped upon boss death.


i also agree that addable rage made the game easier, but i think its good and make upgrading weapons more fun and add something to the game.


an arcane/fire/cold-cuirass in shop wont happen.
get the amulett of protection instead of it. ;)

maybe i will add another amulett as an item though (nice idea)

and i think to replace the skirmisher-cloak in all scn with something else - since it reduces the value of the ability.

and i late game creeps hp may get raised a bit more (turn 170+) but this of corse will have effect on the game-performance ;)
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

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