Conquest Minus

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Blop
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Re: Conquest Minus

Post by Blop » March 26th, 2013, 1:06 am

I have already discussed this with SlowThinker.

I understand your point.
However, I do not agree that this dimension you talk about is removed. There are as many possibilities to plan ahead (sometimes even more, which forces decisions and also enables skill raise). There can still be a decision between expansion and gold. Moreover, restricted regions can cause disadvantages which do not result from skill deficit.
It is not possible to balance restricted regions on this map without changing it completely. Restricted regions also cause less skilled players to do even worse against more experienced opponents.
On the other hand, it is not easy to rush 10% ahead if you play against an evenly skilled opponent on a map with evenly open regions while it may be easy to do so when you have spawned in a more open region than your opponent.

I tried to keep the spirit of the map, not changing many tiles per region. I tried to make every single region attractive and am still trying to make different spawns evenly difficult.

The idea of balanced restricted areas (and possibly many more teleports) may be used in future Conquest maps, but is not possible on this map in my opinion.

Moreover, a balanced way to play Conquest against each other is via two mirrored games. Without so many restricted regions, less single luck decisions occur.

Post 2
About contact points and expansion speed:

I am trying to do changes that mainly benefit the position i want to buff ( as right now with New Calron). I am also trying to make new passages blockable with considerably low effort.

Post 3
Another thing about a "10%-lead":

1) I am not so sure if such a lead can be easily achieved unless the player has a lot of luck with spawns or skill.

2) By clever expanding (decisions and scouting) a player can catch up in income (for example rushing with two weakened cavalry and taking out militia). There are also still the points in games when you cannot spend all of your gold effectively.
Last edited by Crendgrim on March 26th, 2013, 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged consecutive posts. Please use the "edit" functionality instead of double/triple posting.

SlowThinker
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Re: Conquest Minus

Post by SlowThinker » March 28th, 2013, 9:29 pm

Blop wrote:There can still be a decision between expansion and gold.
There are two ways of expansion in Conquest:
expansion for land - a long-term goal
expansion for gold - a mid-term goal (max. several turns): this one is less important with open areas
Blop wrote:Moreover, restricted regions can cause disadvantages which do not result from skill deficit.
...
On the other hand, it is not easy to rush 10% ahead if you play against an evenly skilled opponent on a map with evenly open regions while it may be easy to do so when you have spawned in a more open region than your opponent.
I believe the imbalances caused by weak/strong AI in the beginning are far most important.
Blop wrote:Restricted regions also cause less skilled players to do even worse against more experienced opponents.
... and this is good :)
Blop wrote:I tried to keep the spirit of the map, not changing many tiles per region. I tried to make every single region attractive and am still trying to make different spawns evenly difficult.
The idea of balanced restricted areas (and possibly many more teleports) may be used in future Conquest maps, but is not possible on this map in my opinion.
I understand your position. The other way - to restrict open areas - would require more changes than the way you went - i.e. to open restricted areas.

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Blop
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Re: Conquest Minus

Post by Blop » March 29th, 2013, 12:25 am

SlowThinker wrote:
Blop wrote:There can still be a decision between expansion and gold.
There are two ways of expansion in Conquest:
expansion for land - a long-term goal
expansion for gold - a mid-term goal (max. several turns): this one is less important with open areas
That is true. However, i tried to force players to choose from multiple options when opening regions (for example Gagarlon) so they still have to plan ahead and consider which one is more worthy and what risks they want to take.
SlowThinker wrote:
Blop wrote:Moreover, restricted regions can cause disadvantages which do not result from skill deficit.
...
On the other hand, it is not easy to rush 10% ahead if you play against an evenly skilled opponent on a map with evenly open regions while it may be easy to do so when you have spawned in a more open region than your opponent.
I believe the imbalances caused by weak/strong AI in the beginning are far most important.
Also true, one possibility is to do mirrored games at once. The other is an algorithm to place evenly strong spawns mentioned by you.
Still, my argument remains true.
SlowThinker wrote:
Blop wrote:Restricted regions also cause less skilled players to do even worse against more experienced opponents.
... and this is good :)
I don't think so. You may feel like experienced players should rule the inexperienced, but I can still remember what it was like to be inexperienced. I want to give them a fair chance and i don't like it when experience or map awareness gives too big of an advantage.
And let's be honest - on a map this big it is not hard to play out ones experience and win over lesser players. Also, I like to be challenged not only by the top players.

Still I think we agree on most points ;)

SlowThinker
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Re: Conquest Minus

Post by SlowThinker » March 31st, 2013, 4:32 pm

Blop wrote:I don't think so. You may feel like experienced players should rule the inexperienced, but I can still remember what it was like to be inexperienced. I want to give them a fair chance and i don't like it when experience or map awareness gives too big of an advantage.
This is what handicaps are for.
If a weak player has equal chances against a strong one then also this is true: your chances don't depend whether you try hard and play well or not. And this is not what you would want.

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Blop
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Re: Conquest Minus

Post by Blop » April 1st, 2013, 3:25 am

Oh, I think you get me wrong. Obviously it is good that weaker players also have worse results. However, the point is that with too many restricted regions you have to know the map precisely to match an experienced player. I just don't want to force players with less experience to lose because of things like that.

SlowThinker
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Bank mode

Post by SlowThinker » April 4th, 2013, 2:33 pm

Bank mode

a bug:
'Financial view' must be invoked by the right-click menu in order to reflect the changes of income. If invoked by ctrl-J then it counts with the income from turn beginning.


---------------------------
This is a new game mode that is included in Conquest Minus 3.1.5.
I will edit the help later, this is only a draft:

Overview:
The basic idea is simple:
Anytime you can borrow gold from the bank (up to maximal debit) or return any portion of your debit to the bank. In the beginning of any turn you pay an interest from your debit. If you have no gold for the interest payment then you bankrupt.

But in order to minimize a player's work with the finances, the system is a bit more complicated:
In the beginning of any turn the bank lends all gold up to maximal debit automatically (An interest from this gold will be payed in the beginning of next turn only and only from gold that was really used). At the end of any turn all free gold (up to the debt size) is returned to the bank automatically (in order not to pay any interest from it).
For example if maximal debit=10 (this is the default value), and side 1 (red) would start with 11g (like in the capitol mode), then it will actually start with 21g: 11g is the own gold of the player, 10g is the possible loan. If the player ends his turn with 10g then he borrowed nothing, if he ends with 9g then he borrowed 1g ... if he ends with 0g then he borrowed 10g (this is true for any turn, not only for turn 1).

Details:
In a normal Conquest game your finances are described by one value: your gold.
In the Bank mode it is different; your finances are described by 3 values:
your own gold: this is your property, and a definitive "plus". This is a part of your instant cash.
your minimal/depleted debit: this is the gold that you borrowed from the bank and fully spent in past. So it is a definitive "minus"
your free debit: this is the additional gold that the bank offers you. This is a part of your instant cash, but only provisionaly: the portion of the free debit that you don't spend is returned to the bank at the turn end, and so you don't pay any interest from it.

In a normal Conquest game your goal is to maximize your income. In the Bank mode your goal is to maximize your net income: the income minus the interest payments.

There are 3 game parameters, and they are set by the first player: interest rate, initial debit, and maximal debit (credit limit).
The interest rate is related to one turn: if the interest rate is 40% and your your debit is 20g at the end of turn x, then in the beginning of turn x+1 you will pay 8g as an interest.
The maximal debit (or the temporary debit) is equal to the sum of the depleted debit and the free debit (see above). It is called 'temporary' because the player can decide whether he will use all the gold or will return a portion to the bank.
If the inital debit is not set to zero then it will decrease the starting net income. In Conquest Minus the starting income is mostly +5g, and now it may be lower or even negative.

How it works:
  • By default all players start with 0 gold (i.e. their 'own gold' (see above) is 0). This may be changed by applying the handicaps (i.e. by a change of the income in the lobby, which in fact changes the starting gold).
  • In the game beginning
    • it is expected in order to buy first 3 villages and 3 militias you borrowed 'initial debit' gold. So you start with this debit and in the beginning of turn 2 you will pay 'interest rate'% from this debit. At this moment your minimal debit is equal to the initial debit (see above).
    • the bank loans you temporarily another gold up to 'maximal debit'. So you obtain 'maximal debit'-'initial debit' gold. This gold is added to your cash, and you can spend this gold or not. This is the 'free debit' as described above. The part you will spend will turn into the 'depleted debit' and you will pay the interest from it.
  • In the end of turn 1 (and similarly in the end of any next turn)
    • the part of the free debit that has not been spent is returned to the bank, and so no interest will be payed from it (see next point)
  • In the beginning of turn 2 (and also in the beginning of any next turn)
    • your new cash is counted this way:
      • your 'own gold' remains in your cash
        the income is added
        the interest is payed from the 'minimal debit' (but it is not payed from the 'free debit' - see next line)
        the 'free debit' is added
    • if your cash is negative after all these operations, then you bankrupt and all your units are removed.
Financial tables:
They show accountings to a player.
'Financial report' explains the situation in the beginning of the turn, just after the icome has been added and the interest has been payed.
'Financial view' alters immediately after any change of the game state, i.e. after any gold expense and after any change of income. The 'Financial view' shows three hypothetical variants - if the player spends all his available gold (up top the maximal debit), if he spends just all his own gold (he borrows 0 gold of his free debit), or if he spends 0 gold.

Usage:
It is unclear which settings ( interest rate, initial debit, maximal debit) are best, but here are some examples
  • The default settings come with a high interest rate (40%), and so the player should speculate carefully whether he shall borrow any gold or not. The maximal debit is high (50g). This way the bank mode should balance the game starts: in the Capitol mode a player could be short 1 gold to complete a region, in the Bank mode this will never happen.
  • You can make Bank mode very similar to Capitol mode, except starting unbalances are partially erased: set normal gold in the game lobby (e.g. red 10, blue 14 for 1 vs 1), interest rate 40%, initial debit 0, maximal debit 10.
  • In a single player game it is possible to try hard settings and turn the game into a survival: the initial Conquest Minus income is usually +5, but a high initial debit can turn the initial income into negatives. With reasonable interest rate and maximal debit one can still survive, or at least survive long.
    So for example it may be hard to survive with interest rate 40%, initial debit 13 (it is supposed the player doesn't start with a completed region), and maximal debit 60
Hints:
- a simple way how to think about an interest: if the interest rate is 40% and you don't use 1g (and so it is returned to the bank) then you have 1.4 gold next turn. So you should think whether you have any better usage for your 1g.
- distiguish yor own gold: an example: if the maximal debit is 50 gold and you have 61 gold then 11 gold is yours. So you can spend 11 gold free of charge, for any next gold you will pay an interest.
Last edited by SlowThinker on May 16th, 2013, 1:58 am, edited 6 times in total.

SlowThinker
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Conquest Minus 3.1.5 + 3.1.6 + 3.1.7

Post by SlowThinker » April 21st, 2013, 11:08 pm

Conquest Minus 3.1.5

Changes that affect the game mechanics:
  • Bank mode - a new Conquest mode (experimental). Read the help in the previous post
Changes that don't affect the game mechanics:
  • players can choose various content of the 'Scenario Objectives' window; Help is added to all modes and financial reports in the Bank mode
  • the bug in Recruit Info that showed a 170% defense of horses in forests has been repaired
  • in a singleplayer game, Capitol mode, the change of the minimal starting distance is not offered anymore
  • some little changes of texts
Changes of maps:
  • New Age Pasarganta ver. 2.0.7
  • Test your strength! ver. 1.0.
    News: miscellaneous polishing, for example a change of some game settings (gold per village, fog, shroud ...) is prevented; many changed on the map: this version is a bit harder than the beta version
  • Lotrando ver. 1.26
    News:
    Western havens' bonus increased from +4 to +5, Celtar lost a port, Tryel is human
    Eltanur's bonus decereased from +6 to +5, Hestada moved one hex SW
    water castle between Hestada and Lestomysl is blockable (deep water)
    Kwazz -> Ghrak-trul possible for a drake militia
    little terrain changes around Kwazz
    Estapur -> Anduithel is harder (an attack from a flat terrain only)
    Dark Forest -> Brown Lands is easier
    added hills adjacent to Sastak
    Impassable Mountains (Mm^Xm) were replaced by Lit Stone Wall (Xol) so that they are not confused with Mountains
  • Xanthor
    bug warning: bug added: only 2 players can play this scenario; no other change
*****************************************************************
Conquest Minus 3.1.6

Changes that don't affect the game mechanics:
  • changes in the bank mode:
    • the default bank settings have been changed so that they have only a little effect and the game stays similar to the capitol mode.
    • the hosting player can choose between a) starting gold equal to the capitol mode and b) zero starting gold for all players
    • Financial View immediately reflects changes of the game state
    • bug warning: Financial View is incorrect if invoked off player's turn
    • the bank mode doesn't work with Conquest Europe and Desert Empires (because of a non-standard scenario format), and so it was disabled there
  • in the game lobby add-on requirements are shown for individual scenarios
For maps creators:
  • scenario format ver. 2.6:
    the stuff around regions (read of region data, calculation of region bonuses and labels) has been moved to the core. Therefore the compatibility of scenario files with the original Conquest is lost (only little some remnants stay)
Changes of maps:
  • Xanthor
    a bug repaired: in 3.1.5 only 2 players could play this scenario
  • New Age Pasarganta ver. 2.0.9 bug warning: Wrymady is spoiled
  • Lotrando ver. 1.27
    more water (mostly fords) in southern Eltanur, western Menhiria, western Mumland and southern Condorus
    land units can move between Elenna and Eltanur
    Elenna's bonus raised from +3 to +4
    the fort between Kirkwood and Barbarians has been moved south
    terrain changes around Dark Forest
  • Test your strength ver. 1.1
    more deep water between Bermudile and Cedarwood

*****************************************************************
Conquest Minus 3.1.7

Changes that don't affect the game mechanics:
  • repaired a bug of version 3.1.6, that affected Financial View in Bank mode (see above).
Last edited by SlowThinker on May 19th, 2013, 4:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I work on Conquest Minus • I use DFoolWide, Retro Terrain Package and the add-on 'High Contrast Water'
I moved to Nosebane's corner (Doc Paterson's signature); I am spending my time there, so PM me if I don't answer your post in forums

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Blop
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Re: Conquest Minus

Post by Blop » May 17th, 2013, 3:10 pm

Here is version 2.1 of the New Age Parsaganta map.
Terraforming is finished and all major balance issues should be fixed. If you find something in that regard, feel free to message me.

If you do not know how to install a map manually, click here: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 98#p479398
Attachments
New Age Parsaganta.zip
Map version 2.1
(16.96 KiB) Downloaded 173 times

SlowThinker
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Conquest Minus 3.1.8 + 3.1.9 + 3.1.10

Post by SlowThinker » May 19th, 2013, 3:47 am

Conquest Minus 3.1.8

Changes that don't affect the game mechanics:
  • repaired a bug of version 3.1.7, that didn't show 'Scenario Objectives' window correctly in reloaded games
  • bank mode: the default interest has been raised from 40% to 50%
Changes of maps:
  • New Age Pasarganta ver. 2.1 - repaired a bug of ver. 2.0.9 that spoiled Wrymandy

Conquest Minus 3.1.9

Changes that don't affect the game mechanics:
  • capitol and bank modes: added auto-labels of villages (they are invoked by a right-click)


Conquest Minus 3.1.10

Changes that don't affect the game mechanics:
  • changes of autolabels:
    • bug fix: corrected the side color that is shown in autolabels
    • autolabels are enabled/disabled for all allied sides together
    • the report of the moment when the autolabel was created is more precise: both turn and side are shown
Attachments
Conquest-(3.1.8).7z
version 3.1.8
(725.18 KiB) Downloaded 149 times
Last edited by SlowThinker on August 12th, 2013, 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marvalis
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Re: Conquest Minus

Post by marvalis » June 11th, 2013, 12:52 pm

Replay with out of sync errors
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Blop
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Re: Conquest Minus

Post by Blop » August 4th, 2013, 6:18 pm

Map update: Only very few small changes that I made over the last weeks/months. Map version 2.2
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SlowThinker
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AI for Conquest Minus

Post by SlowThinker » August 8th, 2013, 9:59 pm

Sometimes people speculate they could write an AI for Conquest. This post shall provide some basic info for them.
AI in Wesnoth
I know only very little about the AI in Wesnoth (neila knows more about some aspects, so you might want to ask him too), and here is the summary of my knowledge:

It looks all the AI-related documentation may be accessed if one starts here:
http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Category:AI

You can both write a completely new AI:
http://wiki.wesnoth.org/WritingYourOwnAI
or you can modify the existing Wesnoth's AI:
http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Practical_Guide ... I_Behavior
Wesnoth 1.11 brings new ways how to modify the existing Wesnoth's AI:
http://wiki.wesnoth.org/Micro_AIs

Warning: the wiki is not always correct and up-to-date
AI support in Conquest Minus
The Conquest Minus AI support (next "CAIS") is included in the file ai_support.cfg. Firstly it appeared in Conquest Minus 3.1.5. So far (i.e. from Conquest Minus 3.1.5 to 3.1.10) CAIS was not turned on, because it was not finished.

Unfortunately CAIS is incomplete, a bit messy and is not well documented. But I will explain the basic stuff here:

How to turn CAIS on?
if you want to test CAIS then copy the file
...\add-ons\Conquest-\scenarios\disabled\xanthor_ai_support.cfg
into
...\add-ons\Conquest-\scenarios\xanthor_ai_support.cfg
and start a game on the map "Conquest- Xanthor test"

CAIS may be invoked by the context menu. Then it is expected the player would droid the side (':droid'), but for testing purposes he can play the side himself (a note: CAIS cannot find out whether the side is controlled by a human or by an AI).
CAIS works only until the side turn end. (but anytime CAIS may be restarted by the context menu again.)


Why only the map xanthor_ai_support.cfg includes CAIS?
Notice xanthor_ai_support.cfg contains a line

Code: Select all

{ADD_AI_SUPPORT}
which "calls" the macro ADD_AI_SUPPORT defined in ai_support.cfg


What CAIS does?
so far it does not include any intelligence, but it provides a framework for such a (future) intelligence:
  • it can recruit from villages
it allows to force the default Wesnoth AI (=RCA AI)
  • to force a specified move
  • to force a specified attack

How CAIS works?
For example in order to force the AI to perform a specified attack:
  • it removes all moves and attacks of all units (see proc_remove_attacks_left, proc_remove_moves) except one unit that shall attack
  • it provokes the attack (see prc_force_attack) and waits until the attack is done
  • then it restores all moves and attacks (see proc_restore_everything)
This way the default Wesnoth AI (RCA AI)
  1. can be modified for Conquest purposes (recruit from villages, prefer capturing villages over attacking enemy units, embark/disembark ships ...), and the rest of original AI algorithms may be preserved (now CAIS tries to perform this work, although it is not finished)
  2. or it can fully replace the original AI and can control any attack and any move - (in future CAIS could be used for this task, but it would be much more laborious than point a) )
I work on Conquest Minus • I use DFoolWide, Retro Terrain Package and the add-on 'High Contrast Water'
I moved to Nosebane's corner (Doc Paterson's signature); I am spending my time there, so PM me if I don't answer your post in forums

SlowThinker
Posts: 876
Joined: November 28th, 2008, 6:18 pm

Conquest Minus 3.1.11

Post by SlowThinker » August 12th, 2013, 5:20 pm

Conquest Minus 3.1.11

Changes of maps:
  • New Age Pasarganta, ver. 2.2
    only very few small changes
  • Wesnoth, ver. 1.2
    one more flat terrain besides Mekor and Drethar
    faster water connection between Lintanir and Thoria
    terrain changes Aethenwood <-> Tahn
    terrain changes Bitter Swamp <-> Tahn, Eastmark
  • Poland 1 vs 1, ver. 1.06
    Mazury are easier: Ostroda->Mragovo faster, Olsztyn->Braniewo faster, Elk is mermen
    Podkarpaty are easier: the bonus is +5, 2 more flat at Tarnow and Nowy Sacz
    Slask is easier: the bonus is +5, but worse terrain
  • Dative, ver. 1.3
    the bonus of Center is raised from 4 to 6
  • Liquergue (teleports), ver. 1.3
    Sidon<->Deglatia is one hex more distant
    the expansion through the eastern ocean is slower
  • Lotrando, ver. 1.28
    the elvish castle between Kirkwood and Barbarians has been moved 2 hexes south
    Menhiria was too much compact, and so a forested hill has been added so that Ramtadur<->Lenticia is harder
    Netipol(Mumland ) moved one hex NE
    changed terrain around villages in Eltanur (Pestront, Hestada)
    changed terrain around Steppentan in Foggy Mountains
    changed terrain between Thrapton and Ploermel
    the impassable and unwalkable terrain in Murter has been unified
Attachments
Conquest-.tar.bz2
Conquest- 3.1.11
(766.2 KiB) Downloaded 118 times
Last edited by SlowThinker on February 28th, 2014, 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Hiebe
Posts: 25
Joined: March 25th, 2010, 12:48 am

Re: Conquest Minus

Post by Hiebe » August 22nd, 2013, 4:13 am

Coming back officially now. Will be around for awhile till i head off to bootcamp. would love to play against dem ol'dies out there.

see ya on the battlefield

wtf_is_this
Posts: 55
Joined: March 24th, 2010, 7:01 pm

Re: Conquest Minus

Post by wtf_is_this » September 21st, 2013, 10:12 am

Hello guys,i am back in wesnoth(and probably conquest) for now :).PM me in the forum or MP lobby if you are intrested in 1v1/2v2 games at conquest minus :)

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