Ghouls - Necrophage

[Skrim]

Kicking a Ghoul off of a village with a determined melee attack would well pay for the price of the Ghoul in the amount of damage and nuisance done by all the poison and direct damage. It would force a retreat(thus protecting the village) or do a lot of damage. Though it could be done if the attacking force has a Shaman/Augur/other healer in toe to occupy the village and stop the poison.

Making the Feeding ability give a +4 heal would make the Ghoul/Necrophage even more adept at it's task of being a poison-spreading tank.

[Darkaros]

Some people have a habit of feeding their Necrophages lots of kills until it gains 120ish hp from feeding/AMLAs'. Unfortunately, I've never actually used them that much. Sure, I keep a few for support, but if a Necrophage dies I usually just shrug and move on since they have such a poor increases from level one to level two.

I'd probably like it better if Ghouls advancing into Necrophages got 6-4 poison melee instead of 7-3. The main reason to use Ghouls offensively is for poison, anyway, and with 4 attacks it'll be easier to posion. The Feeding hitpoint boost according to level sounds like a good idea, too.

Level 0 = 1hp
Level 1 = 2hp
Level 2 = 3hp
Level 3 = 4hp

Still, it'd be nice if Ghouls healed themselves for each kill, too. Max hitpoint bonus multiplied by 2 (or, in this example, 3) hitpoint heal would be pretty nice (Level 0=3 Hp healed total, Level 1= 6 Hp healed total, ect.)

For the current, even though it's possible to get a super-powered ghoul, it'd be a terrible bore. They're kind of pathetic and the increase in upkeep is barely worth the level up.

[Turuk]

Ghouls and necrophages aren't designed to be killing units, I feel rather they are defensive/support units for the undead, as they are fearless and resist everything except impact, to varying extents. This makes them ideal to hold 60% def terrains as melee units don't really wish to be poisoned on the counter and as for ranged attackers, only the mage can, in theory, easily remove one from a 60% def hex.

I think this sums it up well, as it's not the unit line's attacks that are deadly, but what they are capable of. Your opponent will work to get ranged units to counter it or risk taking poison on however many melee units it takes to kill it. This lets you place them to make your opponent have to shuffle his units around.

[Darkmage]

Really that's true, a poisoning unit is made to help by poisoning, and i usually use 1, or in case if i got money 2, and are quite useful when supporting weakened flanks and to make the retaliate for daytime...

Anyway i don't find the feeding usefull for anything but colosseum, so i liked the idea of 8HP heal because sometimes a ghoul can be hardly weakened.

[ThePortal]

I actually disagree with the whole tank scenario.
In most situations its just too risky to have skeletons as offence considering they are just too fragile against the obvious.

Adepts are a great offence yes, but also quite squishy if not protected properly.

Ghoul has 33hp and no defence from impact and face it 10% defence against blade is not all that flash (nor makes a noticable difference.) So considering that ghouls do not get any random bonus to their health, damage or speed... 33hp makes for very little... That is only 5 hp more than an Adept (Adept being able to benefit from Resilient and Strong traits) and has almost the same defence against blade (which is the main form of damage.)

Not so tank if you ask me... my experience of the ghoul is very few and far between... It normally doesn't last very long.

I know I personally quickly focus a ghoul because I consider it easy xp food...

It just doesn't really have a function in the game aside from being able to poison units, and normally doesn't last long enough to poison enough units.

It can't really tank = 33 HP is too little
It can't do a lot of damage = low damage 4-3
It can't hunt units down = low movement points
It can't become very powerful = Necrophage a weak upgrade, low hp gain, low number of attacks, low damage and feeding is quite useless.

[Turuk]

It just doesn't really have a function in the game aside from being able to poison units, and normally doesn't last long enough to poison enough units.

We weren't necessary saying that it would be successful in poisoning units, but when your opponent has to worry about his units getting poisoned and getting them to a village, he will think twice about attacking it in melee. It's about perceived threat.

[ThePortal]

It just doesn't really have a function in the game aside from being able to poison units, and normally doesn't last long enough to poison enough units.

We weren't necessary saying that it would be successful in poisoning units, but when your opponent has to worry about his units getting poisoned and getting them to a village, he will think twice about attacking it in melee. It's about perceived threat.

If I'm pushing an attack and I go through a Ghoul, trust me... the damage dealt by the ghoul will probably be low enough to continue pushing the attack and maybe get another kill or 2 by the time the poison has dealt 16 damage you've already retreated to safety. Or at least got another round of damage in with the unit poisoned before you have to send it back.

Ghoul is an ineffective unit... Not classed as a tank... Not classed as a damage dealer, and a rather useless poisoning unit. I'm far more afraid of an Orc Assassin! Marksmanship, 70% defence (when placed correctly) and I can't safely pick him off with an archer.

[Mystery]

The Ghoul is actually a very good unit, largely hinging on the fact that the poison status is so good it's almost overpowered. Its lack of Impact weakness and minor Fire resistance, while not notable on their own, also allow it to complement Skeletons/Archers nicely. The fact its poison is applied through melee is probably more of an advantage than the Orcish Assassin's ranged poison attack since many units have no ranged attack at all (in contrast, only Dark Adepts have no melee attack), making it better on the defensive. (Marksman and range makes Assassins more safe offensively.) It has hefty Pierce resist, by far the most common ranged attack type, making ranging it down to avoid being poisoned quite difficult. They're also immune to poison themselves.

But this is not a topic for discussing the merits of Ghouls, this is about how leveling them into a Necrophage is nearly useless. I'd have to agree. I realize there should not be substantial reason to feed kills to a max-level unit, that's fine. The problem is that the Necrophage is bad enough to the point it's almost not even worth leveling a Ghoul into one. Poison doesn't care how much damage your attack does, only that you land an attack to apply the status, and even Necrophages don't hit particularly hard directly. Their damage is only on-par with standard Lv1 units, such as Undead's own Skeletons. So, perhaps Feeding should be a significant ability to make the Necrophage worth leveling into... But no, that is also not the case as Feeding is extremely weak.

Yeah, I think Necrophage could use some buff, whether it's by buffing Feeding to actually heal some minor amount or some other method. A 6-4 melee attack was mentioned. Maybe it could gain a weak ranged attack instead (projectile vomit!) or get a small bump to its base HP or resists. (10% Impact resist, low 50's HP, whatever.) However, I don't think it's a big deal either way. Leveling a Ghoul in MP is uncommon to begin with, as Ghouls usually don't take many kills with their weak direct damage, and Feeding is fine in campaigns or long survival/coloseum-type games.

[ThePortal]

True! I'm getting pulled off course (although point still stands about the Ghoul)

Necrophage needs a buff. I've already given some suggestions, but maybe a level 3 version of it?
Increase it HP? Something make it worth while.

[Turuk]

but maybe a level 3 version of it?

This was done previously, at least in DiD, with the Ghast. The Ghast's growth ability was renamed feeding and given to the Necrophage, and the Ghast was never mainlined due to the artwork. Shadow_Master's Blood Imp was in the running to serve as the sprite for it though.

[manored]

I'm sure I'll get mixed responses here but who else thinks that "Feeding" requires a little bit more of a buff?

I mean it doesn't upgrade after that and the amount of times you actually get a kill with the unit makes it hardly worth while. +1hp isn't that great. It needs to be something more substantial.

Anyone else agree or wish to provide some input?

I agree, "+1 max hp per unit killed" really doesnt makes a difference in combat.

I was thinking that the simplest and most understandable thing would be to increase the max HP bonus, but not randomly, just having it as +2 or +3 for example...

Sounds good +5 hp per unit killed is my suggestion

I actually disagree with the whole tank scenario.
In most situations its just too risky to have skeletons as offence considering they are just too fragile against the obvious.

Adepts are a great offence yes, but also quite squishy if not protected properly.

Ghoul has 33hp and no defence from impact and face it 10% defence against blade is not all that flash (nor makes a noticable difference.) So considering that ghouls do not get any random bonus to their health, damage or speed... 33hp makes for very little... That is only 5 hp more than an Adept (Adept being able to benefit from Resilient and Strong traits) and has almost the same defence against blade (which is the main form of damage.)

Not so tank if you ask me... my experience of the ghoul is very few and far between... It normally doesn't last very long.

I know I personally quickly focus a ghoul because I consider it easy xp food...

It just doesn't really have a function in the game aside from being able to poison units, and normally doesn't last long enough to poison enough units.

It can't really tank = 33 HP is too little
It can't do a lot of damage = low damage 4-3
It can't hunt units down = low movement points
It can't become very powerful = Necrophage a weak upgrade, low hp gain, low number of attacks, low damage and feeding is quite useless.

The idea of the ghouls tanking is not to survive the enemy attack, but to stop his meele units on their tracks due to the risk of getting poisoned if they attack. It delays the enemy and might even criple the whole attack. Also, its attack is not as weak as it seens, as if it manages to poison an enemy unit, that unit will take 8 damage right on the start of its next turn.

[ThePortal]

Ghouls aside...

Feeding needs to be something substantial... Something that makes Necrophage GOOD.

I personally prefer:

Necrophage kills a lvl 0 unit: +1 maximum HP and +5 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 1 unit: +2 maximum HP and +8 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 2 unit: +4 maximum HP and +12 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 3 unit: +6 maximum HP and +16 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 4 unit: +8 maximum HP and +18 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 5 unit: +10 maximum HP and +20 life healed

The life healed may seem like a lot but it means that you actually have to use the Necrophage in battle and cannot keep it out back just to get last hits all the time. The maximum life gained is only a fair comparison to the HP a unit would have at the level it is killed. Most melee units at lvl 3 have around the 75-80 HP so effectively if the Necrophage were to kill enough units to get 80 HP it would be close to the equivalent of leveling Skeleton to a Draug.

This seems like a fair reworking.

[Pentarctagon]

i think that the necrophage should be buffed out a bit, since it is a bigger version of the ghoul, maybe it should have 10% more impact resistance. also, feeding should reflect the level of the unit killed.
ex.
Necrophage kills a lvl 0 unit: +1 maximum HP and +1 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 1 unit: +2 maximum HP and +2 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 2 unit: +3 maximum HP and +3 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 3 unit: +4 maximum HP and +4 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 4 unit: +5 maximum HP and +5 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 5 unit: +6 maximum HP and +6 life healed

anything more than that seems a bit OPed, especially for hp healed.

[Turuk]

anything more than that seems a bit OPed, especially for hp healed.

True, but this would only be prevalent in certain unique add-ons and in campaigns, the common MP game would not have a Necrophage killing a level 4 or 5 unit (or that many level 3s for that matter).

That's sort of why I don't understand this:

Necrophage kills a lvl 0 unit: +1 maximum HP and +5 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 1 unit: +2 maximum HP and +8 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 2 unit: +4 maximum HP and +12 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 3 unit: +6 maximum HP and +16 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 4 unit: +8 maximum HP and +18 life healed
Necrophage kills a lvl 5 unit: +10 maximum HP and +20 life healed

I know you are proposing these changes to make it more effective in MP, but that sort of change will have a much greater impact on campaign play, for the reason mentioned previously.

[silent]

We weren't necessary saying that it would be successful in poisoning units, but when your opponent has to worry about his units getting poisoned and getting them to a village, he will think twice about attacking it in melee. It's about perceived threat.

If I'm pushing an attack and I go through a Ghoul, trust me... the damage dealt by the ghoul will probably be low enough to continue pushing the attack and maybe get another kill or 2 by the time the poison has dealt 16 damage you've already retreated to safety. Or at least got another round of damage in with the unit poisoned before you have to send it back.

Ghoul is an ineffective unit... Not classed as a tank... Not classed as a damage dealer, and a rather useless poisoning unit. I'm far more afraid of an Orc Assassin! Marksmanship, 70% defence (when placed correctly) and I can't safely pick him off with an archer.

This conversation makes me wonder what sort of map you're playing on. That may be the reason why you view the ghoul as useless

On a map like cynsaun battlefield, poison is going to be less useful due to the large no. of villages allowing either an easy retreat, or massive income to replace the poisoned units.

However, on a map like sablestone delta, where there is a fair gap between villages on either side, poison is very effective as it puts units out of action for several turns as they must retreat to their side to heal, then come back when adequately healed, which in turn reduces the effectiveness of the overall assault against you.