Let's make Heavy Infantries useful!

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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krotop
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Post by krotop »

Actually, zombis are becoming a standard for undead's day defense (combined with ghouls). Gallifax shown quite good strategies that way. And it decreases slightly the point of having HIs in loy-UD match, in my opinion. Maybe we could ask for his opinion.
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Clonkinator
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Post by Clonkinator »

Imo HIs are very useful in any matchup if used properly (well, maybe not against drakes). You shouldn't recruit much more than one if you aren't facing undead, but it can hold castles extremly well, and is also not all that easy to remove from a village. Plus, many units are weak to impact, not only skeletons. Also, if you compare HIs to woses, don't forget the fact that HIs may get traits, while woses may not. A strong/resilient HI is even better than the wose imo, because it has more defense at the important terrains, still lots of HP, does crucial damage (good to kill off enemies quickly before getting hit himself too much) and has also great resistance to blade and pierce (50%/40%), the two most common damage types.

All in all, I think the HI is very well balanced, although maybe reducing its gold cost by 1 (that means, to 18 ) may be no bad idea at all.
Radament
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Post by Radament »

I'd prefer them having fearless in the trait pool; as mentioned before they usually arrive late and are stuck in bad places at the wrong time of day. So fearless would come in handy.

And it would make sense to have 1 fearless lawful unit too.
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JW
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Post by JW »

Just to clarify:

I was applauding the -1g, add fearless idea, not the -3g idea. After reading more responses I think perhaps just adding fearless to the trait pool would be a better idea than him having his normal 2 traits + fearless. I'm not sure though.

Come on Noy....chime in with your musings.
Gallifax
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Hi not usefull?

Post by Gallifax »

Well I am a lazy writer:)

I can only put it like this: The heavy infantery is fine as it is:D
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Noyga
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Post by Noyga »

Two important things about the HI's strenght not to forget :
- he has great resistances against the two most common types of damage. Probably more than the half of the usual wesnoth units.
- while he has poor defense, it is still decent in some important terrains (like villages)
I do find that for 19g, they are still worth their price. Perhaps -1 gold would be ok, but more would overpower this unit in the Loyalist faction.
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whatnoth
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Post by whatnoth »

i think adding fearless is a mistake because it simply makes the heavy infantry better at what it already does well, which is fight skeletons. now it can fight skeletons even better at night if it rolls a fearless trait, but fighting skeletons was never an issue. do we want to broaden its usefulness, or increase the effectiveness of its niche function? loyalists are already going to use heavies against skeletons, but the weakness of heavies against drakes (highly mobile army, fire damage) and dwarves (footpads, fighters) can be redressed with mobility modifications.

not being able to use cavalry, horsemen, or heavies in the mountains really hurts against dwarves and drakes. its virtually impossible to retreat wounded heavies unless they are on pure grassland. i cant count how many times ive had heavies pinned against mountains or swamp or snow or shallows and been totally unable to get them out of danger the way i would do with any other injured unit. when you have a niche unit, you have to be able to evacuate it when the niche function has been served, and countering units have been deployed against you. and just the same, in order to serve a niche function, you need to be able to actually reach your target.
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Post by Angry Andersen »

Maybe the problem with HI is that it's niche is too narrow. It is great against skeletons, grunts and a couple of other units (in certain terrains), but it is too easily countered by many other popular units, i.e. Orcish Archers, DAs, Goblin Pillagers, Orcish Assassins, Mages, most Drakes, ... on any terrain.

So while they are excellent under special circumstances they are crap in too many other situations (slow, bad movetype, bad defenses, negative resistances, no ranged attack, expensive).

Maybe they could be changed slightly so that they keep their strengths but suck less in other situations. Bad defense + negative cold&fire resistances makes them too vulnerable. How about giving them 0% resistance against these damage types? Raising their Hitpoints might also be an option.
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Post by Noy »

JW wrote:Just to clarify:

I was applauding the -1g, add fearless idea, not the -3g idea. After reading more responses I think perhaps just adding fearless to the trait pool would be a better idea than him having his normal 2 traits + fearless. I'm not sure though.

Come on Noy....chime in with your musings.
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Aethaeryn
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Post by Aethaeryn »

I still think a subtle but useful change would be to have 3 or 4 MP cost over mountains...
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Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

Just speaking as one who has done both mountineering (Forgive bad spelling), and has worn real mail armor (which is still allot lighter than what the heavy infantry is probably wearing) I can imagine that marching up moutains in that stuff would be torture after the first few miles, (and before then for anyone who has not had allot of conditioning).
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Aethaeryn
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Post by Aethaeryn »

Velensk wrote:Just speaking as one who has done both mountineering (Forgive bad spelling), and has worn real mail armor (which is still allot lighter than what the heavy infantry is probably wearing) I can imagine that marching up moutains in that stuff would be torture after the first few miles, (and before then for anyone who has not had allot of conditioning).
It's not crossing mountains though, only walking on mountains. Since they have 4 MP, would it hurt to cost 4 MP, which would effectively mean they could only walk on one mountain a turn?
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Post by name »

whatnoth wrote:i happen to think it is particularly cruel to have 2 cavalry units and the heavy on one faction, when neither of the three can move through mountains at all. this seriously limits the loyalists. if i could do anything to the heavy, i would give it 3x mountain movement and 40% defense, same as hills basically. i would also drop the shallow water to 3x.
whatnoth wrote:not being able to use cavalry, horsemen, or heavies in the mountains really hurts against dwarves and drakes. its virtually impossible to retreat wounded heavies unless they are on pure grassland. i cant count how many times ive had heavies pinned against mountains or swamp or snow or shallows and been totally unable to get them out of danger the way i would do with any other injured unit. when you have a niche unit, you have to be able to evacuate it when the niche function has been served, and countering units have been deployed against you. and just the same, in order to serve a niche function, you need to be able to actually reach your target.
Aethaeryn wrote:I still think a subtle but useful change would be to have 3 or 4 MP cost over mountains...
I whole-heartedly agree. At the very least, HI need to be able to move over mountains, though at only 1 tile per turn. They are after all, heavy Infantry, which means they should be able to follow and support the rest of your infantry, albeit at a slower pace.


Noy, what do you have to say about just allowing HI to travel over mountains at one tile per turn?
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Post by Grand Marshal Aditya »

I like the idea to make them permanently fearless...That would be a great balancer.
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Post by DDR »

I was fighting undead a while ago, and my opponent was leaning rather heavily on the skeletons. I had 1 HI, and it was the only effective unit against them I had, all my others being blade/pierce. It leveled, and saved the fight! It was worth every penny. :lol:
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