Ladder Site Online...

[grrr]

Hi Guys,

There is one thing I really miss from Grrr's all random addon: MUSIC.
Is there a way to put music back?

Thanks,
Rudanar_Firmus

I did it again! I forgot about including the music - I never play with Wesnoth music, so I didn't realize it was missing. It'll be an easy fix I hope, as long as I don't forget it

[Rigor]

time to post something again. if u dont like too much text, i made a summary for u guys at the bottom. i dont like not being read only because of huge chunks of text.

2 sets of maps for ladder games

bad idea

most players prefer to play weldyn and freelands and switching from those maps to user made ones could be too shocking for them I think .

after some time of use, it doesnt appear to be THAT shocking, imho.

This idea is somehow like making one step back

i dont like to make a step back only to please weldyn/freeland ladder nerds.

Players that are prepared to restart a game just because "wrong map" was picked by the add-on should really not use it in the first case and should use other settings they agree on instead. That specific type of players (...) aren't happy with all maps.

this is just so right!

Most people are either very open minded or very conservative.

this is a pretty interesting statement. i wonder whether its true for real life as well or only applies to games.

The idea, at its core, is a good one, with good intentions. I can't imagine any other way to ensure that you guys get a lot of data for these maps. (...) if it serves the greater good of giving bored ladder players more maps, and helps gradually improve those maps, so be it. I really do think that those goals are fine goals. (...) I've always taken a very slow and cautious approach in the balancing and inclusion of 1v1s, and I completely understand if ladder players want to work within a system that moves faster.

interesting maps which would otherwise disappear in oblivion will only ever improve if they get enough exposure. so far the community seems to like those new maps, and has no problem with testing them for a month. as soon as we see that there is a major problem with the map we can kick it out. however, there is no problem having the footie/ulf tactics vs undeads fixed only in 1.9, right? and yes, sometimes there are people who think "oh this is a critical thing, we must remove this immediately" - i am one of those guys. i dont think one should be trying to keep something up only because it has worked so fine in the past (until now). we need to go a bit faster.

actually its surprising for me that i received no negative feedback at all so far. the only thing ive heard is that some maps might be unbalanced, but that came only from eyerouge and docpatterson so far and ive never SEEN the actual unbalance in any replay. maybe the LADDER PLAYERS WHO ACTIVELY PLAY THOSE MAPS wanna say something as well? i mean, its your ladder, those are your maps - if you want ANYTHING improved, speak up, and dont just lurk in the dark saying nothing, not playing the addon, saying its unbalanced, or prefering to stick to something that you know already for so long.

Map Workshop http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 26&start=0

another thing that comes to my mind is that ive been playing wesnoth for so long already, and i know every map from numberous games. at some point this recruit-push-retreat story got so redundant for me that i just couldnt see wesnoth anymore. half of those maps that are being played all the time bore me to death and this is also one of the reasons why i started to experiment with strategies that are most likely not going to see the next game ever again. its not only my opinion that having only those few maps from which only a small number is played regularly is sufficient for a healthy MP environment. i am sure other players feel the same.

summary:

(new) maps that are unbalanced can get kicked out
new maps will get more attention and improve at light speed, if YOU, yes YOU help us.
new maps are important to keep some of the players motivation high.
new maps means more fun and diversification

[eyerouge]

actually its surprising for me that i received no negative feedback at all so far. the only thing ive heard is that some maps might be unbalanced, but that came only from eyerouge and docpatterson so far and ive never SEEN the actual unbalance in any replay. maybe the LADDER PLAYERS WHO ACTIVELY PLAY THOSE MAPS wanna say something as well?

Logic dictates, with the help of empirical data & probability, that any new map is more likely to be unbalanced than balanced at it's birth. Now, I don't know the process behind the newly included maps with the addon, but that statement is true nevertheless. It is also true that most maps have to go through many revisions over rather long trial periods before the start being mature and ripe enough to resemble something which is balanced.

If we all would agree on this it is interesting to re-read the statement "that some maps might be unbalanced". Yes, as we have seen there is no logical necessity that a new map must be unbalanced. However, probability dictates it is indeed unbalanced.

This is my major point in this post - not following probability is quite often equivalent as being irrational if potential loss is greater than potential benefits from defying reason. (I can give intricate examples of playing lotto, crossing the high way at dark, jumping from second floor etc etc but won't)

What the discussions should boil down to is, as I think Doc was quite correct to point out in his own way, if having new unbalanced maps bring more than they take away from the summed up and total ladder experience in the long run.

While I think they may seem like a good idea in the short run I am at the same time very conservative about what the function of a ladder is and specifically the Elo rating itself.

I myself think that in the long run it is a bad idea to knowingly according to probability have unbalanced map included as legit ladder ones, for the simple reason that the Elo is a long term measurement and because it would be skewed in the direction towards the players that were best at recognizing and exploiting map weakness the first.

They would get rating advantages before the problems became so large and publicly know, and every time that behavior is repeated by a new player on a new map it distorts the overall ratings on the ladder as a whole, even among the more serious players that don't exploit the system since every persons Elo and history effects every other players as long as they cross paths (and that can easily be done even if the two players don't play each other since A can meet play B, that played C, that played D, that played E, that played F that played G which had a distorted rating due to map exploits. Now what happens? Every person in this chain gets effected by the distortion. The distortion goes viral. The problem is at hand. And over time it becomes bigger.)

For me it's not a discussion if the new maps are fun or what people think. I don't care at all what people experience when they play them. I only care about maintaining the integrity and meaning of the ladder. To do that I think one would have to be more cautious. While it looks good on paper that maps can be voted out etc I don't see it happening in such a short time span given the size of the community and amount of played games on them.

I.e. if a map isn't considered good enough to be included in mainline release of BfW then one might ask why it isn't so. Then, if the answer somehow relates to balance issues, and it seems to be a valid answer that correlates to reality, that map shouldn't really be included as a legit map for ladder play - no matter what people feel or think is fun. (As an example, I'm sure many would think it was fun to be able to buy xp or Elo on the ladder, or have a lottery where the participants could win x Elo, but so what? It's apparently a bad idea if one wants a serious ladder that actually measures anything worth measuring at all...)

Thus my criticism is about ladder integrity and the meaning of measurement/numbers, and not towards the initiative to include the maps or the one from their creators. On the contrary - I think Wesnoth would benefit from new kick ass maps, and that the ladder would do the same. With that said I think it's hard to prove my arguments wrong as the reasoning seems rock solid and I also don't claim the specific maps are unbalanced or must be so. I'm simply stating that they probably are unbalanced and that if I'm right, then the ratings will be skewd over time.

Question is, is that a problem or not (even if all are free to find the exploits and use them)? I'd say yes, and I would recommend much longer trial periods for the maps and also not using them for legit ladder play.

At the same time I would also try to give the multiplayer / ladder community an incentive for helping out testing them out. One person, or a hand full of them, can not do it alone, just as Rigor wrote above. (When it comes to the ladder or forum one thing could be to give the persons the title "map tester" or something along those lines. Not that I'd personally start working for that alone, but at least it's something. Figuring out incentives are hard though as most people that actually understand the game and map balance are quite busy already...)

[grrr]

(...) if I'm right, then the ratings will be skewd over time. (...)

At the same time I would also try to give the multiplayer / ladder community an incentive for helping out testing them out. One person, or a hand full of them, can not do it alone, just as Rigor wrote above. (When it comes to the ladder or forum one thing could be to give the persons the title "map tester" or something along those lines. Not that I'd personally start working for that alone, but at least it's something. Figuring out incentives are hard though (...)

My conclusion to the same question was (and I took the liberty to emphasize an important point in the above quote): If those maps are *allowed* for ladder games, then that brings the incentive to test them. Ladder points are a currency.

If the goal of the ladder is long-term ratings, I really don't see any problems with introducing temporary imbalances.

[Huumy]

I'm too lousy to read those wall of texts so I just say my own opinion about the new random map pack not replying to any1.

I like the random mappack plz keep it.

[hugho]

Hi,
I find it a bit annoying that a number of replays (by my rough estimation around one third of them) on the Ladder website are not proper replays but just (auto-)saves from last round(s) of play. It takes some time to save the file in the proper folder, open it in a game, and then delete it. And it is annoying for me to do all this to find only a look at a position and not a proper replay.

I don't know why do people put saves instead of replays there, I can think of three cases: 1) people don't know they are uploading a save instead of a replay, 2) accidental interchange of files, 3) they do it intentionally (for example not to show their playing style, but to certify the result by showing a winning position). I think ladder players do know the game (including the settings) well, so option 3) is maybe a major contribution.

While I think it is ok to let people do it (for the reason of the 3rd option), I think it would be nice to somehow distinct a proper replay from just a save on the website, if possible. For the benefit of replay watchers. (:

[eyerouge]

Hi,
I find it a bit annoying that a number of replays (by my rough estimation around one third of them) on the Ladder website are not proper replays but just (auto-)saves from last round(s) of play. /../ 3) they do it intentionally (for example not to show their playing style, but to certify the result by showing a winning position). I think ladder players do know the game (including the settings) well, so option 3) is maybe a major contribution.

1. Uploading saved games is forbidden. There is however no easy technical way to prohibit/hinder people from doing so, short of using the replay parser on the ladder, which is currently not done.

2. I believe that a save game can easily be re-saved as a replay. Just open the game and save it as a replay. I think it used to work. If so, your thesis about 3 is misstaken (or the players acting liek you suggest in 3 are misstaken) If what I write is not correct please ignore this.

[hugho]

2. I believe that a save game can easily be re-saved as a replay. Just open the game and save it as a replay. I think it used to work. If so, your thesis about 3 is misstaken (or the players acting liek you suggest in 3 are misstaken)

True, opening a saved game and saving it as a replay works, and even better this works too:

theres a small box in the menu where u load the game "show replay" or the like

The latter means that, for a replay view purpose, there is effectively no difference between a save (opened with that box checked) and a replay, maybe only a small difference in that the last (half)turn isn't usually included in autosaves. So my "problem" has been solved by that, thank both of you! (:

Remarks:

I checked my estimation, and 12 out of last 39 "replays" downloaded from the ladder website were actually "saves"

1. Uploading saved games is forbidden

I haven't found it in the rules, but I could have overlooked it.

[frodo42]

Just wanted to give the guys that improved the add-on a thumbs up, it works great and I love having new maps around.
The rules update is also nice, especially allowing people to play with whatever settings they agree on (I did that from time to time anyhow before the rules update).

[Rigor]

hi, maps have been evaluated for long enough and i finished (with some help, thx everyone!) the balance on the newcomers.

why dont u upload everything u might ask?

i need one of u guys to pack the new maps into an addon, grrr hasnt been on for some time now and i feel its not neccessary that he has to do this kind of things. would be nice if any of u could pre-flag villages on 3 maps, to help p2 like on every other map. however u ve been playing the raw maps so THIS shouldnt be such a problem for u.

one more new map will be included, a modified scarred foothills. for more information about the recent changes visit this one:

http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 26&start=0

[Rigor]

thanks to tekelili, we have all but astral ports cfgs working, now we need to implement those maps into the existing random mod. here are all the maps...copy them exactely here C:\Programme\Battle for Wesnoth 1.8.2\userdata\data\add-ons without a subfolder.

[eyerouge]

...copy them exactely here C:\Programme\Battle for Wesnoth 1.8.2\userdata\data\add-ons without a subfolder.

What Rigor meant is copy them to:

Code: Select all

YourWesnothDir\userdata\data\add-ons without a subfolder

'Also, that's only valid if you have a wintendo. Linux users are more likely to use:

Code: Select all

/home/username/.wesnoth/

As for the oh-so-trendy-apple I won't go into details as I forgot where I put it and don't feel like pillaging the apartment right now ..,but it's safe to say it's not like on a windows machine, and that it would be closer to how Linux works.

[Quetzalcoatl]

I forked grrr's addon and do a few things to it... I updated maps posted by Rigor (didn't added pre flagged on Elensefar Courtyard as I don't know if krotop wants to have it) added Scarred Foothills to usermade maps (can be randomed in all maps or umc maps or even picked ) and added Arcanclave Citadel to default all-random list (I modified configs so it can be also picked manually from now on). However as I don't have almost any understanding of WML all of those changes need some testing probably...

grrr is looking to be afk for a while so you have to delete old addon folder (CompetitiveGaming), download this archive:
http://github.com/Quetzalcoatl/wesnoth- ... /wcg-1-8-7
extract it, look for first top level CompetitiveGaming folder in new directory and put it in yours addons directory instead of CompetitiveGaming you had earlier...

Cheers
Q

[Rigor]

thats wonderful news!

does anybody feel able to put it online on the addon server? alternatively u have to download it from the link supported by Q. i tried it and didnt experience any technical problems so far.

maybe a colorful distinction from the normal map pack would be good as well, ill see if i can find something...

[Rigor]

actually i made it already, so if ur in the lobby just msg me!