The High Seas (Naval MP Scenario)

[lord_midnight]

I can appreciate that you find a Survival mode to be odd, but opinions vary, and I like exploring a lot. There is a lot to this map, more than can really be seen in a standard game. I just want to set it up, so people can get the most out of it.

As for the Man-o-War, they are way overpowered. Even near turn 30, with 2 Frigates and a Galleon to support my flagship, I was getting overrun. Early, late, doesn't matter, it is just too easy for the Pirates to destroy a small fleet. No I wasn't hunting Pirates, I was taking goods to trade. It just happens too often, that severe losses to pirates ruin chances of winning. Maybe I ran into some bad luck, who knows. For it to happen so often, leads me to believe that there should be a few less. Perhaps if the interval between spawns was larger, like on turns 3, 20, 40, and 60, it would make them easier to manage. I really think it was that everyone ran to shore and stayed there for so long, that they were able to amass numbers. As I said, it took working with the other players to keep them down. They also tend to favor certain towns, making the map even more unbalanced. I love this Mod, but I think it can be better. Which is why anyone makes their own, because they think they can do it better.

Naturally, to make it a Survival type map, many things would need changed, it would as different as it is now, with your modifications, than it was when Bob released it.

I read through about 13 .cfgs to get a better understanding of what was going on under the hood. There is some powerful functionality in there. I actually saw several things in the macros, that were not accessible in the game. I think it will end up being its own beast when I'm done, I will probably create a new map entirely. I'm hoping to bring in some things from survival, a modified version of the shop, and a bit of Ken-Oh's Modular RPG stuff. Hopefully, when I'm done, I will have a nice multiplayer, role-playing scenario, that captures the essence of High Seas Adventure, and the culture of Wesnoth, magic and all.

I can appreciate that good players, with a lot of experience have no trouble with this map as is. For the rest of us 'mortals', I think it is hard enough using all the new abilities that are there. A few extra enemies to keep it interesting is great, but one should really only have chance to lose the game, from another player, not the map itself, or vice-versa. Watching four ships get take down by a Horde of Pirates, after 25 turns of building up a small army, is lame. I say either fight the other players, or fight the computer, but to contend with both is annoying.

Anyway, my point was less to talk to you about how hard I find the Pirates, but more to mention I was drawing from this to make a mod of my own.

Take Care!

[Mabuse]

Even near turn 30, with 2 Frigates and a Galleon to support my flagship, I was getting overrun.

now seriously, you play 30 Turns to get ships in value of 450 Gold

at turn 30 you can have ships of about 1400 Gold at least. That is enough to destroy 2 or 3 MOW, still the royal NAvy (you still dont get that YOU are the pirate , the MOW are the defense Ships from Gaol and work together with Pirates and Seamonsters (for a dark reason)), is something that should be avoided as long as possible, since you wont get your expensive Ships damaged in a fight versus the AI.

If its not otherwise possible you can easily mass some ships and wirth wise hex-selection you can destroy some mow with low losses. in any case getting ships for 400 gold in round 30 is just a joke. your flagship alone can (equipped with extra gangplank and 10 thugs) destroy a MOW AT NIGHT with minimal retaliation in a single round, of course that requires some skill

if you play bad you will lose, there will be no change in the game (from my side at least) that will make bad play win the game

[lord_midnight]

ok, 10 minutes ago, turn 35, 1000gold in ships lost in less than 4 turns to 3 MoW, they are overpowered. if it isn't fun, it fails. You may be good at this map, you know everything about it, but if people who have played it 5 or 6 times, and I've played it more than that, are losing ships left and right, and not having fun, its unbalanced.
Much less to set sail to get a load to trade, and have 6 ships swarm me, no that is just stupid.

[Mabuse]

I bet you dont even know that the shiprecks (not the ones thast are spawnedwhen a ship is detroyed) and icebergs give 70% defense for ships, and seacacti give 60 % for ships.

anyway, your fault. that easy. i dont know why yu have such big problems with mow, in my games when i had a fleet i could always repel them (sure, the one or other ship gets destroyed)- still its better if they go for other players -

[lord_midnight]

well, maybe for the flagships, but for the ones you hire its 40%

again you attack me personally, instead of evaluating the balance of the map.

You know it by heart, naturally you will do fine, I intend to make it playable for the rest of us.

I can admit, that I may not have the most experience, and that I may be making mistakes, but can you admit that it might be a bit more challenging than most people will find enjoyable ?

Advanced Mod or not, it shouldn't take a master tactician to enjoy the scenario.

[Mabuse]

well, maybe for the flagships, but for the ones you hire its 40%

nope, its same for all ships

i also dont attack you personally, its just that i recognize that you are far from using your ships to full extent and cry afterwards that your opponents are overpowered.

btw, i didnt change anything (except melee-attack, all ships got a ram-attack for better balancing) about the MOW, they were always that strong. i never had problems with them, sure, MOW got me also as i wsnt that expierienced, but i never thought they are too strong. they are just about right - they are a threat, and the royal fleet still poses to be a threat if you have your first small fleet for 1300 Bucks. but thats ok, get more ships, build a better fleet - and avoid fighting them

the MOWs are a great "tool" to balance the gameplay, since the first guy who gets a resonableamount of ships and acts careless, or tries to get map-control in order to block ports any shipyards, has to fight the MOWs. in the meantime the other players can catch up. its always a chance also for other players

if you make em too weak that even a noob can fight them, then you can better cut them out completely, then they dont serve a purpose anymore. nothing is more annoying than impotent MOW. SLANN also made a MOD and i found it extremely stupid. he went to TRUTT and fought sea-snake (usually oyu just run ) and after a while MOWS came in and he simply killed them, while standing on a 30% def Hex - lol how dumb is that anyway - but i got the picture why the guy think that MOW were too strong - of course he had a lot of Victory points then, and i just thought how stupid that is, and destryoed his damaged ship becasue he acted like a noob anyway and didnt put men of the rigging for good sight and stuff

we can conclude that there will be always a noob who dont get it how to deal with MOW.
if you see one put a galleon on a 70% defhex, and your other ships out of sight (but in range of your galleon), the mow will attack your ship, then you retaliate and destroy the MOW. after that you run again of course, becasue you dont want to fight all the mow on the map anyway. you only fight a mow if it is absolutely nessessary.

[-stf-]

Just question - is there updated version of The High Seas on the addons server? Seems there is version 0.1.6 on the 1.4.x addons server - is that just another numbering or is it still the old version?

[Mabuse]

The MOD is not on the add-on Server, if you mean that

[-stf-]

Version The_High_Seas_Naval_BattleV41.zip from this forum is MOD versiom? I thought it is latest version with bug fixes and you forgot to udate it on addons server. Then sorry.

[Mica]

Yes it is a mod.

And Mabuse, about 50 people (exaggeration probably) have complained about the strength of a MoW - I think you should consider changing it, instead of keeping it the same way because you play your way and they play their's.

[Mabuse]

.. is latest version with bug fixes and you forgot to udate it on addons server.

Property of Bob The Mighty

Btw, i think too that he should update his "original", at least the FOG/Teleport Fix seems important for me.

and hmm, about the MOW, as mentioned i think they should be a threat and i personally dont have Problems with them (unless im in bay of negal and they trap you there. even if can hold them off, this may decide the game - but to go there this is a decison YOU make, not them), well, of course they make always problems, but thats ok for me, i mean.


but feel free to make a mod, i personally cant imagine how to make the MOWS weaker to still pose a threat. since a human player will use the 70% def hexes and ai just charge mindlessly.
in the other hand with the annoying MOWS gone the game could be more freely played.

so i see there can be a use for this MOD, and everybody who want can make it.

[-stf-]

Hi, i found some bugs in Mabuse's mod and now fixed about 60% of them (seems some are also in original). Also I have some ideas how to improve this map so here is list of them:

Fixes:
- when shopping slaves, there is shown amount of rum instead of slaves (it is not shown because that city is not producing rum but slaves)
- unwanted characters in messages (rectangles and so)
- maybe some more minor bugs

I'll post fixed version here in few days.

Ideas:
- text labels for all properties (so player knows which one on bottom and left side of map belongs to ground objects on main map) - for better orientation
- raided mine/plantation/distillery/slave market causes city stops production forever, that causes no chance to get more money if players raided all of them (exclude some other targets but these are working the same way), my idea is to reopen that production facility after some time (say 10 turns after raid)
- forts can also have new garrison after some time (say 15 turns) - maybe with less amount of gold (50% of previous amount)
- the same for banks but 20 turns and 25% of gold (only counting default gold amount)
- reduced maximal number of bought ships and hired crews in one turn (my suggestion is 3 ships and 9 crews)
- reduced maximal number of ships and crews you can have at one time (exclude Flagship and Transport) to 6 ships and 30 crews
- cargo from sunk enemy flagship will be stolen by side causing that (only human players) if not already implemented (i didn't look at this)
- first say 1/4 to 1/2 of points (depending on selected points to win scenario) players can be one team (captain friends from prison) but after that every player reaching this number of points will go his own way and become enemy for each other (as he gets more hp, he should be stronger than others or nearly equal. Second alternative can be that all players become enemy to each other after first reaches that number of points
- i can try to fix slave net option to gain slaves (maybe better set trigger to kill condition instead of <10hp)
- all captains are old pirates, maybe they all can have leadership ability (not the ones, that will become captains after first captain dies - but maybe they can have it also as extra ability in character sheet).

That's all and I think I can do it in one week or so, if you will be interested.

Just question - same as slave net - is that nitro bomb functional?

[Mabuse]

hi, nice find with the rum, btw.

the unwanted chracters in messages, well, thats something that hapens from verison 1.4.3 onwards now. maybe you can run the files over DOS2UNIX but that wil also not get fully rid of the Problem anyway

about other bugs i would be interested what these are

about nitrobomb: it was cut out because it crashes the game
about salvenet: it didnt work, so i cut it out.

if you can make them work its ok for me

about the other things:

- text labels for all properties (so player knows which one on bottom and left side of map belongs to ground objects on main map) - for better orientation

sounds good

- raided mine/plantation/distillery/slave market causes city stops production forever, that causes no chance to get more money if players raided all of them (exclude some other targets but these are working the same way), my idea is to reopen that production facility after some time (say 10 turns after raid)

i dont like it, because then the players dont have to thnk about what they do, and evtually even guard aproducing location.

the player who controls the last producing plant wil have an advantage, though most seek the quick cash anyway. a full load (16 resource units) cost just 400 Gold and will pay off later for sure. so after the first raids the players have to trade or put money on the bank. to get some regular income

if the plants just respawn it will be just an endless raiding. i can imagibe though that raiding may be easier/quicker, and so the players will "burn out" the map probably. still oyu may get 1000 gold form a temple you can put it on a bank and get 40/50 per turn out of it. so you may be able to get some income, if you just know how. in best case you have a unit near the bank already of course, before oyu raid the temple, so you can put the money on it asap

so if you want to do this, go for it, but i didnt make it intentionally.
maybe its good for gameflow in completely burned out game.

- forts can also have new garrison after some time (say 15 turns) - maybe with less amount of gold (50% of previous amount)

hmm, basically i thought that the player may garrison the fort after taking it, and then he may train its units there

so, as said, do it, but i didnt make it intentionally.

- the same for banks but 20 turns and 25% of gold (only counting default gold amount)

same as production plant. raided is raided. so you may detroy players income sources then.
it can be a tactic to hold last plant and then destroy everything else. this would be impossible if all things respawn.

but as said, go for it, if ya want.

- reduced maximal number of bought ships and hired crews in one turn (my suggestion is 3 ships and 9 crews)

i wont support that, since ti probably takes to much time then anyway, and the game takes long enough. no need to strech it artifiially because oyu have to wait unti you get all your ships or units

- reduced maximal number of ships and crews you can have at one time (exclude Flagship and Transport) to 6 ships and 30 crews

hmm, nah, the mod is about getting huge fleets i dont see a reason capping it to 6 ships and/or 30 cew. if you have enough money you should be able put in every town 20 units

- cargo from sunk enemy flagship will be stolen by side causing that (only human players) if not already implemented (i didn't look at this)

sounds good, isnt implemented yet

- first say 1/4 to 1/2 of points (depending on selected points to win scenario) players can be one team (captain friends from prison) but after that every player reaching this number of points will go his own way and become enemy for each other (as he gets more hp, he should be stronger than others or nearly equal. Second alternative can be that all players become enemy to each other after first reaches that number of points

i dont think its good or needed. the players are enemies from start anyway. being allies just helps to see where the others go. at least there should be an option to declre war on players if you want, when you want (also here: could be exploited)

but i dont see any sense to wait unitl the last guy get a few points

- i can try to fix slave net option to gain slaves (maybe better set trigger to kill condition instead of <10hp)

as said above: go for it

- all captains are old pirates, maybe they all can have leadership ability (not the ones, that will become captains after first captain dies - but maybe they can have it also as extra ability in character sheet).

hmm, ok, i maybe see a reasoning behind that (because most players wil get luitenent becaseu of ledership, and so other heroes are redundant), but im not sure about it

in any case i will fix the "rum/slave" bug also and load the version up, thx for reporting, i just do it so a fixed version of naval4.11 exist.

so you can freely add whatever modifications come to your mind in your mod.

[Bob_The_Mighty]

I did a minor update to high seas.

* I included Mabuse's idea of being able to buy a new flagship if your original one gets sunk.
* I also increased the number of victory points required to win.
* I cleaned up the actions.cfg code. Before each action had a set_menu_item for every player - now there is only one for each action.
* I also tried to address the problem with units going into the void. Now a unit can only board a ship if the gangplank is clear. Not sure how it will work out.
* The other problem was units jumping into the water to fight ships. I removed Lieutenant from the High Seas Era, and also prevented units that have attacked from boarding ships.

[Mabuse]

* I included Mabuse's idea of being able to buy a new flagship if your original one gets sunk.

hehe, that wasnt even my idea. it was Aethaeryn's. just to mention it.