SurvivalXtreme: Version C.01!

[MCP]

We talked about getting 5 MP after maxing your total movement, but we never agreed or something.

A green potion is definitely useful. Sell it for relatively cheap, like 40 gold, but it must be useless after you attack. So if current movement==0, then green potion cannot be used, but if current movement > 0, then it can be used.


edit:
Mabuse:
2.58b: add a cold melee weapon to forbidden mountain(or all maps), so we can buy it and add rage for the stupid mobile boss fat guys on horses.

[Lastmerlin]

I have tried FM a second time and got stopped the same way as last time - in turn 126 enemies with >30k hp, +70% resist, 2000-4 attack and so on got spawned. And YES I was using the latest version of the addon pack (2.58a), i downloaded it right after my first try failed for the same reason as the current one. Whatever you did to fix the bug, it didnt work properly. Perhaps you should test the changes a bit more... If you need some debug informationen, tell me.
However, I dont think I will try FM so soon again, its just too demotivating

[Golbeeze]

Howdy all. I have apparently run out of free time, especially wesnoth time. I will not be maintaining my SX stuff anymore and I have a feeling I won't be making any- at least not for a long while. If anyone is interested in maintaining/taking over/altering my stuff now or for 1.5.X / 1.6.X just PM me and i'll give you the .pbl info.

[Mabuse]

I have tried FM a second time and got stopped the same way as last time - in turn 126 enemies with >30k hp, +70% resist, 2000-4 attack and so on got spawned. And YES I was using the latest version of the addon pack (2.58a), i downloaded it right after my first try failed for the same reason as the current one. Whatever you did to fix the bug, it didnt work properly. Perhaps you should test the changes a bit more... If you need some debug informationen, tell me.
However, I dont think I will try FM so soon again, its just too demotivating

btw, no.
the code is ok.

i assume you didnt restart wesnoth after downloading and thus used the old version
testing on this one is quite easy, i just set the variable for creep enhancement to whatever value i want right at start and see. (for that reason it was quite annoying the bug was there in first place, but now it is definately fixed)



anyway:
--------

well, i worked a lot on the new map but i became more and more apparently that there are problems with SX design in general. that isnt meant bad at all. sx is a really simple but very fun RPG concept. for slaying foes you (or the team) get money (see it as XP) and you can develop your character for it.

however, while the early/mid game is very much fun (exploring terrain, growing stronger), the late game loses play-fun dramatically. this is for a few reason.

1)
charakter progression too steep.
so for the first 1500 gold (1550 to be exact) you get 40 melee dam and 10 melee strikes. for a total of 400 potencual damage.
life is fine, now you can maybe fight the 500 hp boss.

1500 gold later you may be at 80-20. for a potencial damage of 1600.
hey great now i can fight even the bigger bosses

another 1500 gold later you are at 120-30 for a whopping 3600 damage.
hey, now you can kick the final boss ass.

if it is the final boss. if not the level-designer has a problem, since, the next 1500 gold you would be at 160-40 for 6400 damage - and at that point the game-engine collapases completely.


2) its not only the game engine. even IF the game-engine woudl not collapse, the gameplay is nevertheless screwed. ok, i may send 10000 HP bosses (assuming the game enigne doesnt collapse) - but stll gamplay is lame since every hero has about 25-30 movement (with the 20 movelimit that is, if not, even more)

and thus to this map design becomes completely obsolet, you could make the most detailed labyrinth, oin late game the players just rush through it in one turn, and slay the big enemy there en passant.



solution:

1)
in order to fix these urgent problems i changed a bit the shop system.
for each damage/strike/movment you buy the price for the ceratin item is increased.

for damage this is only 0.1 per point, so every 10 damage the price raises by 1.
strikes grow at 0.5 per strike bought, so every 2 strikes the price raises by 1.

this is not much and wont effect early play, but in loong run you may take away 500 to 1000 gold. i may even make this to 0.15 per dam and 0.75 per strike.


2)
movement, here the increase is much more drastic

the first move cost only 5, but with every buy the price increases by 15.
so its: 5,20,35,50,65,80 ....

with this the first 4 move are even cheaper than in flat 30 move.
the bis difference is in flat 30 you pay 600 gold for 20 move. this is a joke.

to get now +20 move you have to pay 2600+ gold

as said initial char development (+3 move assumed) wil be even supported, you can get to +10 move relatively comfortably, but everything after that is an investment.

as a compensation i will cut the creeps speed progression by 50% also. since it sucks if the creeps are to fast either



3)
use minor leader as "creepfactory" to farm on them.
there will be a new approach in my maps. depending on map, there will be alimit for each leader and when its passed players wont get money anymore for killing creeps of that leader.
when htis wil be exactly depends on map. on some maps p6 can be taken out quickly, on other maps it may take a good while. however, there will be always a limit now



with these changes initial gameplay will be kept, but later gameplay will be hugely improved and way more fun.



there wil be other changes too.

1)
i pepped up the shop with lots of fancy icons for a better visual apperiance, so now weapons are displayed and such.

2)
due to the fact that i keep track of players strikes, damage it wil be possible to buy weapons later. before you could get the weapon, but it had original stats and was therefore useless.
now you can get the weapon with already adjusted stats. the weapon stats will increase accordingly how much points you put in damage/strikes

as a positive sideeffect you can now even get weapons as items, since now your damage/strikes bought will be added to the wepaons base stats

with this some powerful items can be created:

greatbattlesword: slow+charge
(effectively doubling damage, while slow is negating negative effect of charge)

axe of the mauler: berserk+slow

hammer of onrush: berserk+charge

or you may find very powerful 1 times to use magic scrolls that contain attacks

3)
currently it is possibly that weaponspecials can be combined. however, that may be to powerful after all, so it may be cut out again. if i think about a bat with drain/magical/berserk it seems less of a good idea

powerful weapon-special combos should be available onyl for special and rare items

nevertheless there may be a few specials that can be combined like firststrike for example.
in any case its of course possible


3.b)
still no potions in shop, btw
but i will think about it, in this context there may be also magic scrolls added

also i will stick to the good old 10 flat resistances to buy "system"

4)
all items (except weapons that a re bought in shop) will be dropable and can be collected by another player. so you may hand over a potion or a "ring-of-whatever"

potions that can be carried will be stocked up to 2 total (so you may carry 2 red, or 1 red and 1 green)


5) green potions added


6) changed difficulty settings
there are now only 4
"piece of cake", "lets rock", "come get some" and "damn im good"
(obviously inspired by duke nukem 9

the last two is MAD and Extreme unchanged, the last ones is HARD and NORMAL slightly spiced up.

7)
all maps will contain default settings check at top of file.
so you wont be able to spy any opponents, you may be able to spy map (but cant play it) and items but not opponents


i may include a special (and new) SX Era with mainline units that are well suited for SX.
so you can play random finally without worrying to get complete [censored] and have some fun.


well, with these changes on the back you can exspect a polished SX Pack
however, no things are final yet, thingy may change get dropped or altered.


about new map: yes, its also on its way, may take some more time though -
im happy about opinions and suggestions



just to clarify:
-------------

sx is a really simple but very fun RPG concept.

hehe, and not to mention that it is really action based, theres a lot of action and fast gameplay.

this is a reason why it is definately for me 1st choice (well, else i wouldnt make stuff for it , right ) - however, in general it needs/needed some slight tweaks to make it a bit more "dureable" gameplaywise

[MCP]

I have some things to say:
Obviously, keep most of these changes out of your old maps.

1. Point about increasing price of damage/strikes
Optimal dam/strike:
60-16, 75-20, 90-24, 105-28, 120-32 <-- that's about as high as I've ever purchased in the shop.
I think the the damage/strike ratio price should be 4 to one instead of 3.75 to one, just make strikes 80 gold and damage 20 gold, makes the math easier on everyone.
Now make the price increase for damage by 0.1 every time, and the price for strike increase by 0.5 every time. Let's map this out a bit:
base 1-1:
4-1: 60 g (3 damage/0 strikes)
8-2: 160 g (4 dam/1 strike)
12-3: 161 g (4 dam/1 strike, last damage costs +1 gold, strike is the same price)
16-4: 165 g(4 dam/1 strike, strike increases by 1 gold, 4 damage costs 21 gold each)
The percentage price increase is insignificant, and more over just annoying.
I cannot recommend any way to make this work yet, nor do I recommend it in general.

2. Rising movement cost is great, however units that start with 3-4 movement are seriously handicapped over units that start with 9 movement. In DotG I made a scale based on current max movement, something like this:
1-3->4: 1 gold each, just set 4 as the base movement
4->5: 5
5->6: 10
6->7: 15
7->8: 20
8->9: 25
(current max movement)->(new max movement)
So units with 8 movement have to pay a higher price for their first movement, as opposed to a dwarf which has to pay less to go from 4 to 6.
Counter arguement:
Now there are two sides: scouts should be faster than the dwarf thunderer. Ok that's cool. Stick with your current system and make the maps smaller.

3. Sounds good.

Others:
1. Fancy icons might get in the way or slow down the shop refresh speed. You know how all veterans buy damage/strikes: double click, click, click, click, click. If that slows down I'd be kind of pissed. Also if I cannot see everything on one screen, ie I have to scroll, I'd also be pissed.

2. That defeats so much purpose in thinking ahead, but it does fix one problem:
Oh shoot I don't have damage type X, and this boss is flippin immune to my torch and hammer, oh well I can buy the cold attack it is weak to; OH WAIT you haven't included a melee cold attack.
New powerful items sounds like fun, berserk+slow == calc problem. Berserk+charge == faster calcs. Berserk+charge+slow == TOO GOOD?!

3. Be very careful about combining weapon specials.

3b. I told you man, make it possible to 'fix' bad resistances to zero, for a price. Don't forget!

4/5/6/7. sure man sounds good. COME GET SOME.


For old maps:
3b Allow to 'Fix' the bad resistances.
5. Only add the green potion if it is buyable in the shop.

I always wanted to add sound affects to the SX, like 'ultra kill', mega kill, M,M,M,MONSTER KILL! Always makes me laugh.

[Mabuse]

Obviously, keep most of these changes out of your old maps.

hey why ?
dont be so negative

of course they wil be included in the old maps as well.

by 0.5 every time. Let's map this out a bit:
base 1-1:
4-1: 60 g (3 damage/0 strikes)
8-2: 160 g (4 dam/1 strike)
12-3: 161 g (4 dam/1 strike, last damage costs +1 gold, strike is the same price)
16-4: 165 g(4 dam/1 strike, strike increases by 1 gold, 4 damage costs 21 gold each)
The percentage price increase is insignificant, and more over just annoying.

well the sense behind this is that on turn 100 you may have 500 gold less in your purse
ok, thats annyoning maybe

I cannot recommend any way to make this work yet, nor do I recommend it in general.

its already implemented, no biggie here
works good

2. Rising movement cost is great, however units that start with 3-4 movement are seriously handicapped over units that start with 9 movement. In DotG I made a scale based on current max movement, something like this:
1-3->4: 1 gold each, just set 4 as the base movement
4->5: 5
5->6: 10
6->7: 15
7->8: 20
8->9: 25
(current max movement)->(new max movement)
So units with 8 movement have to pay a higher price for their first movement, as opposed to a dwarf which has to pay less to go from 4 to 6.
Counter arguement:
Now there are two sides: scouts should be faster than the dwarf thunderer. Ok that's cool. Stick with your current system and make the maps smaller.

well, dwarfs are top notch units. top resists, top movement type (everything/most terrains costs just 1) - but they are slow.

take a bat or a griffin and you will be faster but have also other weaknessess.
that wil be aprt of the game and is fully intentional.

as said, +4 move cost same as before. after that dwarf must pay a bit more to ge to 10 total, but thats ok imo

i fully agree with the circumstance that units have strengh/waaknessess (and for the dwarf speed is the only "problem")

Others:
1. Fancy icons might get in the way or slow down the shop refresh speed. You know how all veterans buy damage/strikes: double click, click, click, click, click. If that slows down I'd be kind of pissed. Also if I cannot see everything on one screen, ie I have to scroll, I'd also be pissed.

yeah, you are so right - be sure that i had taken care of the. all relevant screens (enhancement or armor) that use fast clicking use small icons or are by default non scrollers.

the items come very handy for the weaponsmith, there you can find the right weapon much faster

for the other menus like weaponry or terrain terrain-training scroling isnt that much annoying (provided you have a mouse with a scrollinh wheel)

nevertheless small menue are much more functional, so i already though about that.
but items are not only fancy, they also help to find things faster

but you rasied a good point, be sure that i will check the shop for funtionality
(that includes for example place a "done" option at end and start ...

2. That defeats so much purpose in thinking ahead, but it does fix one problem:
Oh shoot I don't have damage type X, and this boss is flippin immune to my torch and hammer, oh well I can buy the cold attack it is weak to; OH WAIT you haven't included a melee cold attack.
New powerful items sounds like fun, berserk+slow == calc problem. Berserk+charge == faster calcs. Berserk+charge+slow == TOO GOOD?!

true point. i also thought about that.
btw, cold melee was added in the shop.

but theres a point. well, i maybe drop this feature again. on the other hand you cant plan all things ahead, especially if you dont know the map.

but most likely i wil drop this feature again, and just include "secret" weapons

3. Be very careful about combining weapon specials.

most likely this is going to be dropped.
exceptions like firststrikes maybe.

3b. I told you man, make it possible to 'fix' bad resistances to zero, for a price. Don't forget!

will think about this. but im not entirely sure how to make this right.

I always wanted to add sound affects to the SX, like 'ultra kill', mega kill, M,M,M,MONSTER KILL! Always makes me laugh.

good one. i also would like that


deliver me some (free) sounds and i may look what can be done
also if you have a good source for (free) animal sounds let me know it, animal sounds can be good altered to make monster sounds.

[woodmouse]

also if you have a good source for (free) animal sounds let me know it, animal sounds can be good altered to make monster sounds.

I know one site.
http://www.grsites.com/sounds/cartoon001.shtml
There is animal sounds, and a lot of other sounds, too.

[Mabuse]

hey thx.
that will come in handy - i need a cool hit/die sound for my demon grunts.


btw, relating to the special SX Era

heres a List of useful L0/1's that wil be included.
did i forget some useful UNits ?

And remember not all must be top notch but there need to be a reason why they should be in the List.

Vampire Bat, Blood Bat
Dwarf Fighter
Dwarf Thunderer
Elvish Shaman
Gryphon Rider
Cavalryman
Dark Adept
Fencer
Horseman
Heavy Infantry
Mage
Spearman
Sergant
Thief
Ghoul
Skeleton


any more ? Or should i delete some ?
btw, that ghost isnt in the List is intentional



well im not sure about Griffin, HeavyInfantry, Spearman and Skeleton -

Griffin is fast, but prolly weaker than Bat, but i inserted it to have one more Flyer (keeping random in mind)

HeavyInfantry, well it has useable resists more or less) but its movement is really [censored]

Spearman, well on levl 2 it gets some nice resists, isnt top notch, but not worser either.
dont know.

Skeleton, hmm, some good resists but also huge weakness, not sure

[MCP]

If you're including a fencer, you should include saurian skirmisher and orcish assassin too :\

Wose,
Troll,
Wolf Rider,
Drake Glider,
Skeleton archer,
Dwarf Guardsman,
Elf Archer
Mermaids(?)

I'm not kidding about the dwarf guardsmen, put him in.
HI, Troll, Elf Archer, and Spearman are units that can be used, put them in.
Skeleton/archer are possibilites.
Drake glider is possible, check out castle cantar ;p.
Mermaids are decent, but they have such horrible movement. They can be used on evil dead ;p.

If this is just for the 'random' list, the combine our lists, and then remove thief, fencer, mermaids, skeletons, wose, gryphon, and drake glider.


Not to mention any units from EE or Merc RPG eras.

[Mabuse]

sounds good. will be added.

btw, dunno, i wanted to stay mainline for that Era to make it compatible with just having the mappack (and wesnoth obviously)


but i sure could include also an era which use units from other eras.
but i honestly have no time (atm) for evaluating all possible eras for useful units -since i wil go making the SCN again now (needs to get some things done )

maybe you coudl make something like this -i wil surely include it in my pack (or you make a separate download)

in any case you have some spare time feel free to make that era and load it up, it will be surely used. (by me for example)

[Mabuse]

what can i say ... progress is slow bit there is a progress
wasted yesterday the whole day pushing pixels for the gorgon.
(well almost)

but finally i frankensteined my way to success


but soon i will start making the SCN actually, when the preparations are finsihed.


EDIT:

deleted.
no spoil. lol

btw, i had a nice idea for potions, they wont be on shops - but

- there may be a new "item" -
"cauldrons", but players cant take them, instead they will just get a potion there (depending on the content of the cauldron), as ofte they step on it (max potion a hero can carry is 2)
(after they use it up they can get a new one of course)

these cauldrons may be found in laboratories or whereever



ah btw, "may" was the wrong word - there WILL be cauldrons

[woodmouse]

Cauldrons sound nice.
@Mabuse: How is the progress in the new map going?

[Mabuse]

btw, gameplay suggestion:

2. That defeats so much purpose in thinking ahead, but it does fix one problem:
Oh shoot I don't have damage type X, and this boss is flippin immune to my torch and hammer, oh well I can buy the cold attack it is weak to; OH WAIT you haven't included a melee cold attack.

btw, in terms of keeping this feature (being able to buy weapons in shop later with increased stats accordingly to what you have bought dam/strikewise), but also to make thinking ahead still an important thingy at the same time

i decided to increase PRICE of the weapons also, 1 gold per damage bought and 5 per strike.
so lets say ENERYG WAVE costs 100 Base - but yu decide to buy it much later in the game, when your stats are already +100 dam and +20 strikes -

then the price for an energy wave at this point of the game would be 300 gold total.
so its a huge investment at that point but might be worth it if you really need it.
(ok its not that huge but will definately hurt )

it also looks better if the prices in shop go up with better stats

-----------------------------------

EDIT:

1)
btw, i finally decided to make potions (only reds and blues (and maybe greens) though) available in shop. its just another possibility to take money from the players so why not.

2)
also the ancient shop scroll, or something in that direction may find a use, maybe a teleport scroll where you have to define the teleport location via right click, and then activate it with another right click... and or maybe other scrolls

post ideas and suggestions if you like i will see what i can implement.

3)
btw this ability could be even added to a silvermage player character (or any character with teleport ability) - just to have an equivalant for teleport.

this could make this character very strong though (ok, he wont be able to teleport between locations, just to one location, but he could always fall back to shop without any delay.



anyway these are just theoretical thoughts atm, nothing implemented yewt (but should be not to hard ... i guess )

-----------------------------------------------


EDIT2: ah well, maybe i drop the teleport idea, since it makes the mage too mighty, or at least i will limit its use significantly - so it may cost money, well at least as much as a green potion

so everything that costs money is good .


---------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT3:
Damn, after thinking more about it, i dont like the idea of potions in shop again
it seriously defeats the pupose of some potion stores on some maps.

so after all ... potion in shop is definately dropped forever, wont happen in my maps.
never.

instead there may be some fancy abilties, like ... teleport --- or lets say a teleport SCROLL, one use teleport scroll for some cash

this could be a scroll shop where players can buy 1-use-only spells
1 time teleport, 1 time skirmisher, 1 time berserker, 1 time focus or double damage

with this you may be able to "combine" specials for example, but just for 1 use.

anyway, something to think about.




EDIT4:

We talked about getting 5 MP after maxing your total movement, but we never agreed or something.

Forgot to say something about that officially from my side:
increasing MP (beyond 4) after a kill significantly reduces the difficulty and even more, the amount of thinking you must invest. wont happen. 4 is kinda an ideal value imo.

sure you cant just run into a group of guy and kill them all. you also must think a bit.
sometimes at least . so this will really never happen. the vlaue 4 thats exists since the first SX's is one thing i would never change

it also effect map design, if i know plyer is stopped by a guard and in case he kills it he can only move 4 tiles (or bypass this limit via potion) then i can set up things relating to this (for example place the next enemy outside that range so the player WONT get a kill streak, or put the next enemy IN range so the player will get one.

or i may set up a "riddle" where the player must hop from one unit to another or whatever

[Mabuse]

lol. was in a serious shop frenzy. implemented cauldrons and stuff, items, potions dropable (not all though, hehe for example the cursed ring will only drop down if its bearer dies ). prices of weapons will go up with damage and strikes bought also. ... (lol that reminds me i should also make all other items drop down if a hero dies ... .. omg how could i forget that)

while i was at it i also overworked a bit the shop design, and make it that when you buy Weapons or Terrain the bought Options will disappear (since you wont buy two maces anyway)

ah well and you can only heal 1x per shop visit, this is actually no mean limit by me, instead its a protection that players dont waste money healing more often than needed (since with healing you get 100 % HP)

still im not 100% satisfied with the design, but now back to map - or better said units

and keep ideas for scrolls coming

[woodmouse]

and keep ideas for scrolls coming

Poison Scroll? It would poison one enemy that is near? Just a random idea...