the poacher needs balancing

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turin
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Post by turin »

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Beholder
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Post by Beholder »

If the Poacher was on, let say, Drake army, I would give it a spin, because having a unit which isn't weak to pierce is good.

But on Knalgans, I think the Footpad cover most of the Thunderers flaws. What the Poacher do is to cover the flaws which both units left, which is a small niche.

In a nutshell, the Knalgans have lots of units with ranged attacks. They overlap each other, but since the Poacher is so weak, I don't think it's that bad.

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Post by Velensk »

What are you talking about.
The knalgans have 3 units with real ranged attacks and one with a ranged peg (gaurdsmen)

Knalganss8:Thunderer, Poucher, Footpad
Loyalist8: Bowman, Mage
Reble7: Fighter, Archer, Mage, Merman, Shaman, Scout
Northerners6: Archer Assassin
Drakes6: Fighter, Burner, glider, Saurian Skirmisher, Saurian Augerer
Undead7: Ghost, Skeleton Archer, Dark Adept

I think that it's clear that the olny two races that have realativly less ranged units than knlgans are Loyalists and Northeneres both of which are melee specialised. (admitably this does not take into accout frequency used but I don't think that would change much anyway).

Pouchers lack all the negitive resistances of footpads in exchange for worse defences (except in swamps) and they have a better ranged attack 4-4 vs 5-2, They arn't as fast but they deal peice damage and I think they have better hp though I might be mistaken.
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Post by Drake General »

this may have been mentioned, but the bowmen are "better" because the trappers/poachers don't have the army training or the army-made bows that the bowman does. Therefore, he has to make his own, and train himself. His dagger is meant for skinning things, not battle, and therefore isn't very good.
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Post by suokko »

Only weakness that I see in poucher/trapper is that it can be leader. If you use leader to fight a lot trappers role in knalgas are less effective. But as I'm not top player I might not see the best tactic for trapper leader.

So if something should be done to balance knalgas it might be removing trapper from (random?) leader list.

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Post by nebula955 »

actually REAL ranged units with at least 15 damage:

Knalgan: poacher, thunderer
Elves: archer, mage
Loyalists: bowman, mage
Northerners: archer, (assassin is more of a special mage)
Drakes: burner, augur
Undead: adept, archer

doesnt this look more even?

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Post by Velensk »

I was not basing my chart on damage I was basing it on utility (not that I'm saying that gaurdsmen/spearmen javialins are useless but they arn't a huge thing).
Footpads ranged attack is almost exactly as useful as it's melee attack except most units do less retaliation. Other things like shamans ghosts scouts their ranged attacks do provide a definate option for them. I admit none of them are going to individualy do large amounts of damage with those attacks, but it still I don't think their ranged attacks should be discounted if you are comparing.

I agree that 15 damage is a fairly good benchmark for determining if each unit is a "ranged" unit.
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Post by Sapient »

suokko wrote:Only weakness that I see in poucher/trapper is that it can be leader. If you use leader to fight a lot trappers role in knalgas are less effective. But as I'm not top player I might not see the best tactic for trapper leader.

So if something should be done to balance knalgas it might be removing trapper from (random?) leader list.
I agree the trapper leader is horrible, and I wouldn't mind to see this change; then again, on *some* maps the lower movement of the dwarven leaders can be even more annoying.
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Post by Weeksy »

If there were another unit that it was acceptable to use as a leader for the knalgans, it would probably be added to the list, and replace the trapper on random. Would adding the newly mainline-d shadow mage be acceptable for a knalgan leader (but not a unit you can get any other way, kinda like the lieutenant)?
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Post by Blarumyrran »

Weeksy wrote:If there were another unit that it was acceptable to use as a leader for the knalgans, it would probably be added to the list, and replace the trapper on random. Would adding the newly mainline-d shadow mage be acceptable for a knalgan leader (but not a unit you can get any other way, kinda like the lieutenant)?
it has magic & cold, not fitting knalgan at all.

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Post by Weeksy »

Perhaps the bandit?
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Post by Beholder »

A huge map is a place where Poacher would have a use, since the Thunderer is slow.

But I would cringe to the idea of *needing* to use the Poacher. I don't know how to explain, but I don't like to use it. It's one of these units you use when things aren't going the way you wanted and the enemy has the upper hand. Maybe the map is too big, maybe you are low on gold, maybe the map is a big swamp and in that case, you aren't using any dwarf outside the gryphon.

I know each unit is balanced within it own faction and not versus individual units, but it's hard to not look to the Bowman and not think the Poacher lacking.

If bigger maps were more played, people would [censored] more about the Poacher, but people prefer small-to-tiny maps where the Poacher see little play.

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Post by Doc Paterson »

Beholder wrote:maybe the map is a big swamp
Big swamp maps are so underrated.
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Post by Haibane »

Doc Paterson wrote:Big swamp maps are so underrated.
Yeah. But because of it, I agree that trapper is the worst knalgan leader except some special cases. He doesn't fit for normal use as his advantages are not really useful for leader, because you don't want to lose your leader in swamp anyway and it's better and safer to hold forest with some poacher too. Good just when there is nothing to lose.
What about making him selectable but nonrandom leader, like Shock Trooper ?
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Post by Beholder »

Haibane wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:Big swamp maps are so underrated.
Yeah. But because of it, I agree that trapper is the worst knalgan leader except some special cases. He doesn't fit for normal use as his advantages are not really useful for leader, because you don't want to lose your leader in swamp anyway and it's better and safer to hold forest with some poacher too. Good just when there is nothing to lose.
What about making him selectable but nonrandom leader, like Shock Trooper ?
You know.. until now I totally ignored the fact you may end up with it on a random match.

I had the same gripe with a Iron Mauler boss. Surely isn't a boss I like to get at random, mainly because of the speed.

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