Wesnoth music and the future

[Aleksi]

Perhaps, some moderators could talk about it on other forums. There are tons of (so called) composers around and that would be glad to join. But expect a real invasion...

You mean on this forum?

No, i know two other forums where you can fetch composers... But expect lots of demand, and it will require filtering!

Art Contributor Minimal Tools
Professional MIDI mixing software: $100 to $500 dollars. As some of the Lords of Music have already made clear, Apple's Garage Band is (supposedly) not suitable for this work.
Keyboard and a MIDI to USB adapter: $150 to $1,500 or more.
Sound/instrument samples: I'm gonna guess no less than $100 but no more than $250.

Well, i suspect many composers not to buy they're equipment... Anyway, if they did, it would be much more than 250$. Some brands propose packs in this range, but the higher quality one go over a couple thousand dollars...

The VSL Cube is 12,000$...

But it is the best... But only for professionals, that's for sure... Unless you are a real passionate and desire top quality samples.

I wish so too. Unfortunately the discussion about changing the music license sort of just went poof.

I agree that a different license for music might be desirable.

Did anyone ever produce a reasonable alternative proposal? If so, I think we should take it to the Wesnoth developer's mailing list and discuss it in detail. I'd specifically like to hear about what exactly musicians think is and is not reasonable to be allowed to do with their work.

David

Well, in my case, i'm part of SACEM, and i can't use another licence. So, if i can't use it here, i have no other alternative...

[West]

AOf course, campaign designers usually don't have the skills to determine which pieces are worthy of inclusion, so I think any such collaboration wouldn't just be between the musician and the campaign designer, it'd be between the musician, the campaign designer, and the Lords of Music who would try to help the composer get the piece as close to mainline standard as possible, though the standard for campaign inclusion would probably be slightly lower than that for mainline inclusion...

Yup, I was thinking along the same lines. We could have separate threads for all campaigns in the music forum, where LoM's and everyone else can track the progress of all campaign music.

The other thing that would be nice, from a campaign designer's standpoint, is a few pre-set track lists for "underground scenario", "chase scenario", "hold or die" scenario, "revenge!" scenario, etc... I know we can set our own scenario playlists, but there's a lot of different tracks and it's somewhat cumbersome to go through all of them to pick out the ones that would fit for the scenario at hand (I don't have the "feel" of all of the pieces memorized). Though admittedly this is mostly a matter of lazyness. Note to self: go through all custom scenarios and change the music playlist from "default scenario playlist" to a set of tracks that fit the mood of the scenario...

This has been brought up before, and the reason I haven't really gotten around to working on 'tagging' the current songs is... uh, partly laziness, but also the fact that it's not something one person can sit down and decide. We all perceive music in different ways. Optimally we should let people vote. "What type of music is this? a) Sad b) Energetic c) Festive" and so on.

Each of these environs would only need some 2-4 songs, but the trick is to have just enough that we can have one of these playlists be the only playlist used for a level (barring say, special music for an event or something). I mean, for comparison, each entire faction in both starcraft and warcraft 3 had only 3-4 songs each. It's all we need. And the beauty of this, is you can get some new recruit to "adopt" a given set, and do that whole set themselves.

I'm not sure if that's a good idea... I can only speak for myself but once I've finished a piece in a particular style I rarely feel like moving on to working on something in the very same style. Doing a whole set of similarly themed tunes does not sound like a fun prospect -- but that's me. BEsides, I wouldn't want to lock people out of working in a particular style that they're good at, i.e. what if a set is already spoken for and some contributor shows up and excels at that type of music?

Very good suggestions otherwise (sorry for not commenting further, but I have to be going in a short while)

While I agree, just like everyone else, that pretty much all the new music tracks are great and that the soundtrack is generally awesome, I still feel that people are missing that one obvious detail when discussing that: we still have some of those 1.0-era tracks in use! So I kind of agree with the notion that there's a slight lack of direction, since even though people have been contributing a large number of really good songs, all of the old crappy-sounding ones still haven't been replaced. The new music we have is great in itself, but I don't see how someone could get the impression that there's not much more to do anymore as long as they still hear frantic.ogg when actually playing the game. Adding ten new excellent tracks isn't going to change that unless some of them actually fit the specific needs that those old tracks are currently used to fill.

We have suggested replacing northerners/loyalists on several occasions when new people have shown up. So far, no takers.

As for campaign-specific music, I'm not so sure. I think it should rather be worded as character or location themes. If one campaign has a good custom track, then you can't really ask people to not use it elsewhere too if it really sounds good. But you can reasonably ask them not to use "Delfador's Theme" or "Wesmere Theme" unless appropriate. Also, really short motifs and such might be a good idea, campaign-specific victory themes for example. In SoF you'd have some dwarvish-sounding victory theme when you win each scenario, in LoW you'd have an elvish-sounding victory theme, and so on. However I don't think that generally limiting some actual story or gameplay music track just to one campaign would work, because if the track is good and fits other scenarios well enough then people will just go ahead and use it in those places as well, at which point it becomes a generic track.

But then things would be pretty much as they are now, with no need for dialogue between musicians and campaign makers. We would still be making generic music.

I agree with you that we can't ask UMC authors not to use good tracks just because they 'belong' to this or that campaign. But we *can* make sure that the mainline campaigns have some unique tunes. Everything else is out of our hands anyway.

Well, in my case, i'm part of SACEM, and i can't use another licence. So, if i can't use it here, i have no other alternative...

Am I misunderstanding you or does being part of SACEM mean you can't do what you want with your own work?? If so, you've been had, dude...

[Aleksi]

Well, in my case, i'm part of SACEM, and i can't use another licence. So, if i can't use it here, i have no other alternative...

Am I misunderstanding you or does being part of SACEM mean you can't do what you want with your own work?? If so, you've been had, dude...

Yes, i can do what i want with my work. Its just that i'm protected with them. That's the deal. On the other hand, my music is protected around the world, i have access to free lawyers and i get paid for every radio, tv, movie, live and soon, internet passage...

But, i can't protect my music by another licence. But, i don't see why you would want to do it elsewhere, because i've got maximum benefit with the Sacem. Every single artist in France is registered there. You can find a little description in English here.

[Dave]

but I don't see how someone could get the impression that there's not much more to do anymore as long as they still hear frantic.ogg when actually playing the game. Adding ten new excellent tracks isn't going to change that unless some of them actually fit the specific needs that those old tracks are currently used to fill.

This is completely true.

I guess the thing is this: at one stage in Wesnoth's development, we were "desperate" for art. If someone provided us good art, we would make that art fit in, somehow or other. That is how the undead faction came into being.

Then we matured, and got to the stage where simply good art wouldn't do. The art had to be tailored and fit into the game well, and is now planned carefully, and critiqued not only for quality, but also for how well it fits.

I think that we need to make this leap with music. We need to tailor it specifically for our purposes.

As for campaign-specific music, I'm not so sure. I think it should rather be worded as character or location themes. If one campaign has a good custom track, then you can't really ask people to not use it elsewhere too if it really sounds good.

Well it'd really be similar to how graphical art is done. It doesn't need to be rigid.

If you make a campaign and are fortunate enough to get some artists to do some great art for it that is tailored to your campaign, I can still 'scavenge' some of your art and use it in my campaign. The same goes for music. Music might be a little more reusable from campaign to campaign I guess.

David

[Dave]

Yes, i can do what i want with my work.

So we need to understand, what license(s) can you/are you willing to release your work under and what are the terms of these licenses?

David

[Boucman]

Yes, i can do what i want with my work.

So we need to understand, what license(s) can you/are you willing to release your work under and what are the terms of these licenses?

David

hmm that might be a typo

If I remember correctly what Aleksi said in previous discussion, he can't do what he wants with his work

[Aleksi]

No, i can. Its just that i declare the piece and its use.

Example:
I would deposit a music like this:
"Generic Wesnoth music No 1"
The description, tempo, AIFF file and score. It is then protected worldwide.

After that, i can give the authorization for Wesnoth to use the music. And so on...

(I am going there tomorrow and will ask if someone, like Dave, has to sign a paper for that). A paid work will have a contract with the Sacem conditions. I can do whatever i want with my music, i just need to warn the Sacem. Because if they find out that somebody is using my music without authorization, they will either ask for rights compensation, or sue you!

[hiro hito]

In my opinion, if there is not enough composers or music tracks for Wesnoth , it's because the game need a very specific kind of music: orchestral music.

Although, this kind of music fit the game perfectly, it also need good musician/composer that particulary like this kind of music and like to work on it.

Plus, orchestral music need (imho) more skills than any other kinds of music.... and sounds are a lot of more difficult to work compare to "pop" or electro sounds...

I can imagine many tracks for Wesnoth that will be "less" orchestral....
There is some "metal" tracks that can be medieval and more or less orchestral......(atmospheric metal i.e.)
some electro tracks can also be more or less medieval ambiance.....

[Blueblaze]

What you propose equals this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJmZu4lQa9M

I say we stick to orchestral As you can see, orchestral music provokes a certain quality that you can't replicate with synth/pop music

[West]

In my opinion, if there is not enough composers or music tracks for Wesnoth , it's because the game need a very specific kind of music: orchestral music.

Although, this kind of music fit the game perfectly, it also need good musician/composer that particulary like this kind of music and like to work on it.

Plus, orchestral music need (imho) more skills than any other kinds of music.... and sounds are a lot of more difficult to work compare to "pop" or electro sounds...

I see what you mean, but I think orchestral hobbyists are more common than people think. Like I said, the hardware and software required to do decent or even very good digital orchestrations are within everyone's reach these days (GPO, EWQL Silver), which means that lots of musicians have been getting into orchestral composition the latest five years or so. Agreed, they're not as common as people who make electronic music or pop/rock, but it's not like you have to search high and low for composers. Go have a peek at some discussions on northernsounds.com or do some searches on myspace or soundclick, and you'll notice that there's plenty of 'em.

I can imagine many tracks for Wesnoth that will be "less" orchestral....
There is some "metal" tracks that can be medieval and more or less orchestral......(atmospheric metal i.e.)
some electro tracks can also be more or less medieval ambiance.....

I say we stick to orchestral As you can see, orchestral music provokes a certain quality that you can't replicate with synth/pop music

This is a completely separate discussion, but let me say as much as that I have been considering to allow for more leeway when it comes to Wesnoth music submissions. It's a fantasy game and IMO we don't have to be completely anal when it comes to style. That does not mean I would greenlight Blind Guardian type metal tunes or ambient electronica à la Enya, but demanding that all music should be purely orchestral might be a bit too strict. I don't see anything wrong with blending a traditional orchestral sound with more modern elements as long as it is tastefully executed. I mean... if Hans Zimmer popped in here and said "Hey guys, I love your game -- here's a tune I wrote for it", are we going to turn him down because of our 'strictly orchestral' requirements?

The main point is that the music sounds good and fits the game. All else is secondary. If a composer can prove that s/he can use synths or electronic (or obviously sample-based) percussion in a way that blends well with the orchestral sound I'm all for it. I'm not a purist.

BTW, I love that video Blueblaze

[Blueblaze]

BTW, I love that video Blueblaze

Yeah honestly, I didn't care, I just had to share the video

Seriously though, you're right, but honestly I don't see an increase of submissions just because the requirements get shifted a tad. Also, the danger of adding in more synthetic music is that it will stand out too much from our orchestral music, thereby requiring us to axe either all the orchestral pieces or all the synth pieces.

Back to the future of Wesnoth's music, maybe it's time that requirement not just be orchestral music but rather music that can honestly fit into the rest of Wesnoth's pieces without obscenely standing out. This of course may be a huge challenge if you want to put more synth music, but if the composer can do it brilliantly, I say we shouldn't stand in the way. Regardless of what goes in the composition still need to focus on creating memorable melodies that really stick with the listener after the game is done.

[West]

Seriously though, you're right, but honestly I don't see an increase of submissions just because the requirements get shifted a tad. Also, the danger of adding in more synthetic music is that it will stand out too much from our orchestral music, thereby requiring us to axe either all the orchestral pieces or all the synth pieces.

I think you're interpreting my suggestion as more radical than I really meant it. I'm not opening up for using Moog synth leads and a lot of blip-blop techno stuff. All I'm saying is if a composer wants to use a synthetic instrument or two in his arrangement, I'm going to allow that as long as it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. I don't see a problem with subtle things like an eerie pad sound used for ambience or maybe some big percussion hit that makes you go "whoa, that's cool... but what is that instrument anyway?" Simply put: it must sound convincing, like it belongs there, and not gimmicky. IOW, I'm not going to object to the usage of synths just because they're synths.

Of course, I'm not going to make any desicions about this matter until I get more input from others.

Back to the future of Wesnoth's music, maybe it's time that requirement not just be orchestral music but rather music that can honestly fit into the rest of Wesnoth's pieces without obscenely standing out.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Since when is it not a requirement that the music fits in? Lots of submissions have been turned down because they didn't.

Edit: ah, I think I see what you mean now. And yes, I think that might be a good idea, to allow for more varied styles of music as long as it fits in. For example, I wouldn't mind having more traditional/early music type tunes in the game.

[Blueblaze]

Edit: ah, I think I see what you mean now. And yes, I think that might be a good idea, to allow for more varied styles of music as long as it fits in. For example, I wouldn't mind having more traditional/early music type tunes in the game.

Exactly, but that also applies in the other direction to more modern styles of tunes that fit. You can take it either direction, with orchestration, smaller chamber grouping, or mild use of more modern instruments. Basically, we should consider dropping the tag of it must be orchestrated:

http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/Music_Contr ... ing_for.3F

Open it up so that honestly any style of music is appropriate as long as you can make it fit into the other music of Wesnoth. As the requirements say, "That means no synths, no loops, no drum kits, no electric guitars, nor any other pop/rock instruments." maybe that should be allowed, as long as the composer can pull it off to fit with our other orchestrated instruments. Instead of placing strict guidelines on the composer to make it follow standards X, Y, and Z, maybe the only guidelines are that it should fit in the context of other Wesnoth and be able to seamlessly follow or precede the other pieces we have.

As a result, we may find more music that is electronic oriented, but that's absolutely fine if the piece fits nicely with the others. Also, we may end up getting smaller ensemble music as well or even solo pieces if they are done extremely well. Regardless of what origins the music is coming from, it should all fit in our soundtrack together. The instruments shouldn't be the focus of how we classify the music, but rather the style those instruments play in.

Basically I'm calling that we should remove the orchestration restriction on our pieces and be more focused on creating a soundtrack that can seamlessly flow together while creating an enjoyable experience for the listener. Of course orchestration music is more than likely going to be the backbone to our music, but the instrumentation shouldn't be what our key focus is on, but rather the quality and the unity of our music. What is your (and everyone's) idea of that proposal?

[West]

Blueblaze: I think that's very good proposal, I can't find anything to object against.

Of course orchestration music is more than likely going to be the backbone to our music, but the instrumentation shouldn't be what our key focus is on, but rather the quality and the unity of our music.

Excellent way of putting it. We're really not taking any risks either, as the music that we don't want to see in the soundtrack (metal, techno, blues, punk, etc) isn't going to fit in anyway, ever. All we do is open up for some more diverse types of arrangements.

I would also like to know what others think about this.

[Rocket Slug]

As a musician that has long wished to do some form of composing, I'd like to share some of my thoughts.

I am first and foremost a performer. I've been playing the piano since I begged my parents for lessons when I was five. For thirteen years I studied and trained with dedication that left me a passionate and competent, if not an excellent, pianist. However, how can I take these skills and direct them towards composition? With music being such an integral part of my life, why is it so hard to translate some of the tunes, ditties, and snatches of melodies that incessantly play in my head into a more permanent format? This, and the hefty investment required to even set my foot in the door of digital composition leaves me extremely frustrated.

This is why I'd like to suggest an idea that's been burning in the back of my mind for a long time: musical collaboration. Just as songs these days aren't always the work of a single songwriter, Wesnoth's music can be the work of several people working together (more so than just the constructive criticism we give now). One person would contribute a motif and someone else can add on to that, developing it in interesting ways. I think that, if handled well, this can allow composers who do not have the necessary resources to contribute something creatively. Plus, if we have two or so composers working on each piece, I think that this can give a "dueling" feel to Wesnoth's music.

Now, I understand that most of the people here with high-end studios do this for a living, and are reluctant to lend out their equipment time for other people, which is why this is just a hare-brained scheme at the moment. I also imagine that compatibility between different DAW's is also an issue. Add possible creative differences between collaborators and I can see all sorts of holes in this plan. However, I still think it would be a really cool idea if two or so composers find some way to collaboratively create a MIDI song that is later mixed and mastered by someone else on a DAW.