Sight Radius (Bigger Issue)

[SmokemJags]

At best this has been a curiosity at best and an irritation at worst.
After some experimenting, I figured out how it works. A unit can only 'see' as far as it can 'move'.

For example, if you're player 6 on that Battle World map and you don't have units that can move over water very well... you're practically blind to your surroundings.

While units that fly on the over hand are practially omnipotent on maps with a shroud.

It's an interesting way of doing it, but I can't say I much care for it. For factions such as... I think loyalists have no flying and no swimming units, you're pretty blind.

This actually touches on another issue of 'staggered movement' which I won't go into great detail here.

If a unit can move farther than it can see, but some of the places it can't see present terrain that it won't be able to move into...
Well that's a problem that doesn't exist with the current 'see as far as you can move' set-up, but is an issue if units can move farther then they can see.

Ideally, no unit can move farther then it's sight radius, but it still represents a possible issue.

Anyways I was going to suggestion that in the 'unit description' option there be a place where it says how far a unit can see, but after discovering that you see as far as you can move, that's not necessary...

Still it's an issue that I... have issue with but I'm curious as to what the consensus here is before I go make an ass of myself.

Do you guys like how vision works in it's current form? It is original, I'll give it that, but it seems to unfairly discriminate against some factions.

[Thrawn]

I was going t oask this too, actually. I think it would be interesting t ohave sight related t othe unit itself. For example, during night loyalists could have reduced sight, and during day better, or the opposite for chaotic.

[Jester]

as far as I know every faction ahs a flying and/or swimming unit.
Loyalists have mermen, I think.

[Noyga]

Well, each faction has a swimer or a flyer that moves fast on water :
- Loyalists : Merman Fighter (Swimmer)
- Rebels : Merman Hunter (Swimmer)
- Northerners : Naga (Swimmer)
- Undead : Vampire Bat ( Flyer)
- Knalgans : Gryphon ( Flyer)
- Drakes : Drake Glider (Flyer)

[Elvish_Pillager]

Just don't use Fog or Shroud in multiplayer. It works for me.

[SmokemJags]

You're right, they do have mermen, my mistake...

In my opinion though, there are two main types of difficult terrain. Mountains and water.

I see now that every faction has something of a swimmer, or lacking that a flyer which is pretty much just as good... but what about mountains?

Again flyers do just fine here, but factions that don't have units like dwarves or trolls or flyers... don't play on a mountainous map? (Again I seem to be picking on the loyalists)

Heh yes there's always the NO FOG thinking, which I've read does have a following here, but we have to sympathsize and work with people who don't always like to do things the way that we do.

[Noyga]

Well you can extend this to other unbalanced maps like forested maps.
Loyalists & Northerners don't have units with great movement in forest.
Each faction have strenghts and weaknesses and not every maps is good for every faction.

[SmokemJags]

Ahh but there in lies the point, Noyga.

The intrinsic imbalance of factions exists in movement (elves are masters of the forest, orcs are great in hilly terrain makes perfect sense and makes the game interesting) but should that imbalance extend to incorporate those faction's abilities to simply open their eyes and look around on maps with unfavorable terrain?

Fine you have different factions with different strengths. True 'balanced' games would be utterly boring because every unit would have to be exactly the same, the maps would have to be symmetrical, et cetera.

Doesn't it seem to be too much to increase a faction's strength in a department where it is already strong (elves not only move and see, but also fight very well in forests) while further weakening another faction in an area where they are already suffering?

Not only are your trolls extremely vulerable as they skulk around through a forest, but apparently they're blind as well?

[Darth Fool]

Ahh but there in lies the point, Noyga.

The intrinsic imbalance of factions exists in movement (elves are masters of the forest, orcs are great in hilly terrain makes perfect sense and makes the game interesting) but should that imbalance extend to incorporate those faction's abilities to simply open their eyes and look around on maps with unfavorable terrain?

Fine you have different factions with different strengths. True 'balanced' games would be utterly boring because every unit would have to be exactly the same, the maps would have to be symmetrical, et cetera.

Doesn't it seem to be too much to increase a faction's strength in a department where it is already strong (elves not only move and see, but also fight very well in forests) while further weakening another faction in an area where they are already suffering?

Not only are your trolls extremely vulerable as they skulk around through a forest, but apparently they're blind as well?

sure, why not? If you want balanced vision, you play with no fog. If you have any vision variation between units, then you will have maps that are unbalanced vision-wise for some units/factions. The advantage of the current system is that it is quite simple, which is not to be underestimated. There are several minor problems with it, but it seems that most other possibilities would complicate things greatly.

[SmokemJags]

I would agree it is very simple and effective. Everything has it's shares of problems too, heh.

To be perfectly honest my main issues on this topic was simply not knowing how far a unit could see...

After I figured out that a unit see's as far as it can move... I can deal with that understanding even though I might not like it.

For experienced players, something like this is never an issue.
For a new person learning the ropes of the game... it can be incredibly frustrating.

I know it was frustrating for me until I did a little testing and discovered how it works.

I suppose I'm asking for a newbie friendly feature... somewhere that it explains how sight and movement are directly tied together?

Maybe I missed it while I was playing and reading over the game, and if I did please point it out.
I still believe that in an effort to accomodate newer people, having it explained somewhere would be nice.

Possible solution...
When you first start up the game, you know that help and hints box? Maybe write a little something into there.



"On shrouded or fog of war maps, a unit's sight is limited to its movement. Remember this when deciding what unit is best to scout specific types of terrain."

- Tome of Wesnoth

or

"On maps where the shroud or fog of war has been enabled, a unit's sight is limited to its movement. Remember this when recruiting units you intend to scout with."

- Tome of Wesnoth


Something along those lines anyways.

[SmokemJags]

Or simply explain that the term 'sight radius' doesn't exist in this game and explain if you can go there, you can see it. Heh.
But it really should be somewhere and not left to be stumbled upon after experimenting with the game.

[Zhukov]

When you first start up the game, you know that help and hints box? Maybe write a little something into there.

"On shrouded or fog of war maps, a unit's sight is limited to it's movement. Remember this when deciding what unit is best to scout specific types of terrain."

- Tome of Wesnoth

You know, that's actually a very nice idea.
In addition, I think some mention of the movement <-> sight connection could be added to the in-game manual.

[Soliton]

See Gameplay -> Shroud and Fog of War in the ingame help. (last sentence)
I guess it could be formulated better, so go ahead and suggest something if you wish.

[SmokemJags]

Each unit clears locations adjacent to those within one turn's move (ignoring zones of control and enemy units).

Yes, I would have to agree on the formulation of that... Heheh.
Although it is true that sight 'radius' does extend past movement by adjacent hexes.

[Eleazar]

i agree that it's weird to be unable too see across deep water (or other flat) hexes when your units are slow on thoses terrains. I think it would be more natural if a unit's sight was unhindered by terrains that slow it. It's not unnatural to be able to see farther than you can go.

Is there some gameplay reason for limiting sight so?

P.S. Tome of Wesnoth idea will be commited to trunk...
Assuming SmokemJags agrees to the GPL terms here.