[mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit names

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
Post Reply

What should the Shuja -> Khalid be named?

Poll ended at February 2nd, 2018, 2:11 am

Dune Blademaster -> Dune Conqueror
4
24%
Dune Blademaster -> Dune Warmaster
6
35%
Dune Blademaster -> Dune Warlord
3
18%
Dune Champion -> Dune Warmaster
1
6%
Dune Champion -> Dune Conqueror
3
18%
 
Total votes: 17

User avatar
ZIM
Posts: 71
Joined: September 22nd, 2015, 10:04 am
Location: Indonesia

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by ZIM » January 6th, 2018, 7:46 am

Regarding the meaning of Khalifate unit names, I have found that :
Shuja means "courageous", or "brave". Still relatable to the unit.
About Qatif-al-nar, qatif means "harvest" and nar means "fire", so I guess qatif-al-nar could mean "harvester of fire"?
Saree means "honored man". It seems Saree is commonly used as a name. It doesn't quite fit the unit though.
Rami is derived from the verb "to throw". The word itself means "archer" or "good marksman". So the name is quite fitting with the unit.
Only hope and faith can save us.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1529
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 6th, 2018, 2:44 pm

Thank you for that input, Zim. Some of the names were difficult to find info on.
Deciton_Reven wrote:Ifrit are the jinn most associated with fire. I don't know how you might turn that into a name without just using it straight.
You're quoting from Dungeons and Dragons, not the actual mythological lore. The mythological jinn are not elementals; whether Ifrit or Marid, they are made of "smokeless fire". As I understand it, Ifrit and Marid are more like clan divisions than species divisions, though there might be more to it than I'm aware of.
Deciton_Reven wrote:I'd think the necessary evil part refers to how burning someone alive is not normally a very fast or painless death, it's pretty horrible even if it's the 'good guys' doing it.
Sure, that makes sense... if the naffat is intended as an infantry unit rather than a siege unit.
Deciton_Reven wrote:I particularly like Arsonist (probably for the lowest level), especially if the main use is really an anti structure unit in lore. Firestorm sounds more like an attack than a unit, though I'd say the same about Inferno and Hurricane and the Drakes do that. Incendiary can also apparently be used as a noun to describe someone that cause fire. If we ever need a lvl 0 fire starter we could go with Firebug, because that's kind of a cutesy one.
Yeah, firestorm does sound like an attack. That might be part of my problem with it, I guess.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

Deciton_Reven
Posts: 93
Joined: August 6th, 2012, 4:49 pm

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Deciton_Reven » January 6th, 2018, 6:46 pm

Celtic_Minstrel wrote:Thank you for that input, Zim. Some of the names were difficult to find info on.
Deciton_Reven wrote:Ifrit are the jinn most associated with fire. I don't know how you might turn that into a name without just using it straight.
You're quoting from Dungeons and Dragons, not the actual mythological lore. The mythological jinn are not elementals; whether Ifrit or Marid, they are made of "smokeless fire". As I understand it, Ifrit and Marid are more like clan divisions than species divisions, though there might be more to it than I'm aware of.
I mean, a lot of normal jinn are unseen, or dark shapes, if you actually go in to jinn lore, but many Arabic stories have Jinn that take more physical forms, however when Ifirt do so they still exhale fire in most of them, an make no means to stop people from being harmed by the flames. Jinn are neutral spirits in the way angels are good spirits and demons are evil spirits so where angels are depicted as light and demons darkness, jinn are depicted as neither, often leading to an elemental connotation of their natural form, though debatable as that is.

So no, they aren't elementals, but yes of the type/clan of Jinn most associated with fire are Ifrit.

It's hard to know whether to try to diversify by clans or subspecies because different cultures treat them differently, though it seems like the most common way a Ifrit forms is from the hatred of a murder victim becoming a spirit, so arguably and Ifrit is more of a ghost than a Jinn according to what Jinn are as a species in lore (being a precursor race before man, because it's a little hard to be made from angry men if men hadn't existed at the same time as you).

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1529
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 6th, 2018, 9:20 pm

Deciton_Reven wrote:I mean, a lot of normal jinn are unseen, or dark shapes, if you actually go in to jinn lore, but many Arabic stories have Jinn that take more physical forms, however when Ifirt do so they still exhale fire in most of them, an make no means to stop people from being harmed by the flames.
Yeah, most jinn in popular culture end up taking physical forms, but I guess not all the original lore had that...
Deciton_Reven wrote:Jinn are neutral spirits in the way angels are good spirits and demons are evil spirits so where angels are depicted as light and demons darkness, jinn are depicted as neither, often leading to an elemental connotation of their natural form, though debatable as that is.
This is actually not the original jinn lore - it's the Islamic interpretation of the jinn. I don't think pre-Islamic Arab lore even had angels and demons. (Actually, I'm not confident Islamic lore even has demons. I thought it was just angels, jinn, and humans.)
Deciton_Reven wrote:So no, they aren't elementals, but yes of the type/clan of Jinn most associated with fire are Ifrit.
Definitely true, though at least in part due to popular culture. Still, all jinn are associated with fire outside of Dungeons and Dragons or similar games. There aren't really any jinn associated with earth, and the Marid's association with water is fairly weak if I understand correctly (the only association I know of is that a Marid jinn was trapped in a jar and thrown in the sea, and then fished up by a fisherman. This is one of the tales of the 1001 nights if I recall correctly.)
Deciton_Reven wrote:It's hard to know whether to try to diversify by clans or subspecies because different cultures treat them differently, though it seems like the most common way a Ifrit forms is from the hatred of a murder victim becoming a spirit, so arguably and Ifrit is more of a ghost than a Jinn according to what Jinn are as a species in lore (being a precursor race before man, because it's a little hard to be made from angry men if men hadn't existed at the same time as you).
I did see some of this interpretation on Wikipedia earlier, which is interesting because I don't think I've heard it before now.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

Caladbolg
Posts: 195
Joined: January 1st, 2016, 4:40 pm
Location: Hopelessly trapped within the Submachine

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Caladbolg » January 6th, 2018, 9:54 pm

On Sigurd's suggestions:

1. For Arif line, I'd prefer Infantry->Veteran->Champion->Sultan. Names for spear guys are good in my opinion.
2. For Hakim, I like Herbalist, but I'm not too fond of Physician. That said, I don't have any new alternatives in mind.
3. Jundi line: I don't like the proposed names as they invoke the image of a generic melee combatant while the Jundi are very versatile. The unit descriptions Celtic posted also reflect this. I think Skirmirsher would be the ideal name but we can't use it as they don't have the skirmirsher ability. They engage in hit-and-run tactics and harass enemies but it'd be weird to call them Harassers. As they would probably be used to chip away at enemy flanks, maybe Flanker? (Huh, now that I think about it, these guys really are very similar to saurians :lol: ) The whole unit line could go Ranger->Flanker->Saboteur. I'm ok with sword guys' names.

On a side note, I find it really strange that there are no real assassins in this faction considering that those are usually closely associated with the arabic themes as well.

4. Khaiyal line: all fine, though I might prefer Sunderer over Lancer for the Faris.
5. Naffat: Still no idea. I dislike Incinerator as it makes me think of a waste-disposal machine. Firestorm sounds like a spell name. Jinn-related names might work, but we haven't established the relationship between the Dunefolk and the Jinn. My idea for that would be that the Dunefolk fear and respect them (which might explain why they don't use it- they consider it the domain of the jinn and using it would be sacrilege) and in that case, they certainly wouldn't use the name Jinn for a human. So, whether it makes sense for a unit to be called Jinn or Ifrit depends on the lore, and I don't think we should be adding such names without agreeing on the relevant lore first. If we don't get more creative ideas, I'd be fine with Naffat->Scorcher->Firebrand (still think Naffat should be kept as is :whistle: ).
6. Rami line is all good.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1529
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 6th, 2018, 10:45 pm

My only complaint with your suggestions is having ranger as a L1 unit - that would mean the three rangers all have different levels. The Elvish Ranger is L2, and the human Ranger is L3.

Would assassin->flanker->saboteur makes sense? To me it does seem a bit weird though... and assassin->swordwhatever->blademaster would be even weirder.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
Xalzar
Posts: 290
Joined: April 4th, 2009, 10:03 pm
Location: New Saurgrath

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Xalzar » January 6th, 2018, 11:37 pm

Sprites for Dunefolk assassins do exist if you're interested (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=23846&hilit=khalifa ... 60#p551431 and later posts). Note how the Arif line makes graphically more sense.

At this point I should say that I do share an old and unspoken desire for Jinns in this faction, but I don't want to ruin the faction.
But if we try to add them, then I'd delete the Falcons. I cannot understand their utility, and a flying and more flexible Jinn could function as scout in their stead.
Fair warning; I haven't calculated all the balancing consequences yet. I'm brainstorming. :hmm:

User avatar
Transfermium
Posts: 60
Joined: August 13th, 2016, 4:25 pm
Location: The Thirteen Colonies
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Transfermium » January 7th, 2018, 3:16 am

On the topic of names, I've dug up a thread concerning the translations of the current Dunefolk names.
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46736&p=616408
I have not brought you freedom, I found it here among you.
-Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1529
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 7th, 2018, 3:29 am

The falcons do somewhat fit into Arabic mythology, as they're somewhat similar to the roc. The falcon line could be either replaced with rocs or have a roc added as a further upgrade.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

User avatar
Vyncyn
Forum Regular
Posts: 393
Joined: April 6th, 2013, 5:51 pm

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Vyncyn » January 7th, 2018, 7:44 am

Xalzar wrote:But if we try to add them, then I'd delete the Falcons. I cannot understand their utility, and a flying and more flexible Jinn could function as scout in their stead.
I thought of combining the lancer and the falcon line into a wyvern rider (who already has a good looking sprite), but this might be far too expensive for a scout unit.

User avatar
Celtic_Minstrel
Developer
Posts: 1529
Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Celtic_Minstrel » January 7th, 2018, 3:31 pm

And wyverns also aren't very Arabic-flavoured.
Author of The Black Cross of Aleron campaign and Default++ era.
Maintainer of Steelhive.

Caladbolg
Posts: 195
Joined: January 1st, 2016, 4:40 pm
Location: Hopelessly trapped within the Submachine

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Caladbolg » January 7th, 2018, 5:43 pm

@Xalzar: Wow, thanks for the link, those sprites look really cool! ^_^
Celtic_Minstrel wrote:My only complaint with your suggestions is having ranger as a L1 unit - that would mean the three rangers all have different levels. The Elvish Ranger is L2, and the human Ranger is L3.
Would assassin->flanker->saboteur makes sense? To me it does seem a bit weird though... and assassin->swordwhatever->blademaster would be even weirder.
I see your point about the Ranger... maybe shuffling it around? Flanker->Ranger->Saboteur? Scout would also fit, I guess, but I'm not sure if it'd be a good idea considering the faction has mounted units which are faster. As for assassin... I'd expect use of knives, backstab, poison, nightstalk, elusivefoot movetype, skirmirsher (basically, stuff similar to human assassin). At least some of those. But these guys have none of that, so I don't think it'd fit.

name
Posts: 396
Joined: January 6th, 2008, 3:32 am

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by name » January 7th, 2018, 8:33 pm

Xalzar wrote:At this point I should say that I do share an old and unspoken desire for Jinns in this faction, but I don't want to ruin the faction.
But if we try to add them, then I'd delete the Falcons. I cannot understand their utility, and a flying and more flexible Jinn could function as scout in their stead.
Fair warning; I haven't calculated all the balancing consequences yet. I'm brainstorming.
Well the falcon offers no water power at all and it is the only option this faction has for that.

So replacing it with a Jinn and/or Roc would potentially improve balance.

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4056
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by Pentarctagon » January 11th, 2018, 1:14 am

Since there haven't been any posts here in a few days, I assume that what's been suggested so far is mostly it. So, either tomorrow or the day after, I'll go back through and update the first post with everything that's been suggested, and we can go from there in deciding unit names.

If anyone does have any additional ideas for unit names, then of course feel free to suggest them, however once a unit has had its name decided(whether by poll or general consensus), I don't intend to go back and revisit it - given the number of units(and by extension the number of polls that will probably be needed) we'd never finish getting all the units renamed otherwise.

The first thing that will need to be decided though, is the prefix, since that applies to all unit names.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

User avatar
SigurdFireDragon
Developer
Posts: 458
Joined: January 12th, 2011, 2:18 am
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: [mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) unit nam

Post by SigurdFireDragon » January 11th, 2018, 11:34 pm

Another stab at the Naffat:

Firethrower -> Firebrand -> Scorcher/Inferno

Post Reply