[mainline] Changing the Dunefolk's(Khalifate's) race name

[name]

Detailed response to Celtic_Minstrel folded for thread readability:

Spoiler:

1. Wesnoth's world is biologically diverse.

The level of adaptation to their environment is very different between these races, though. Merfolk, trolls, and woses are the only ones I could describe as "profoundly" adapted. Well... maybe nagas as well. Elves, dwarves, and orcs are at best lightly adapted to their chosen environment; they're not all that different from the humans, really. As for saurians and drakes, I think we might not have enough data...

I can see how this applies to elves, dwarves and orcs. But elves are partially of the faerie realm, they are not as ordinary as their initial appearance suggests (that is, before some of them sprout dragonfly wings) and orcs in terms of the portraits are quite strikingly not of the human species.

I would also throw in undead as being quite strange creatures, particularly the ghosts and ghouls.

2. Dunefolk already have a non-human move type and defense type.

Movement type doesn't really reflect solely physical differences. Several units improve their movement on certain terrains over others of the same race. The rangers are a good example. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to create an entirely new base movement type for a human culture that has developed in a drastically different region.

They stay close to the rule though. The most dramatic differences tends to come more from total movement points than move type. You have humans that are lightly armored and nimble and some that can barely move like the heavy infantry. And the same goes for other races (like faster elvish archer versus tougher armored elvish fighter). Yet the terrain advantages and disadvantages stay about the same proportionately. Like the poacher has better defense than other humans in swampland but is otherwise pretty close to normal, IIRC.

3. Dunefolk are the only faction where one race uses multiple alignments.

Uhh, humans already use every possible alignment. You have chaotic outlaws, lawful loyalists, and neutral mages already. The dunefolk merely adds liminal units. While your argument could maybe make sense if this thread were about the faction, it makes no sense when discussing race.

I guess this point was poorly worded on my part. You have different alignments within one race but no within-one-race-within-one-faction. Neutral dwarves and chaotic humans exist in one faction but look different because they are different races. It is not so easy to confuse them. If you had poachers and dark adepts mixed into loyalists then it would get more confusing, who attacks at what time.

That is the situation with dunefolk, lawful and liminal units that are hard to distinguish because they are the same race (thus similar appearance) within the same faction.

4. The help menu already overflows with human units.

Well, I think a better solution for this is... add another dwarf (sub)race. Another elf (sub)race. Maybe another orc (sub)race. You're basically saying "the humans are culturally homogenous, so all races should be", when in face it's more interesting if no race is culturally homogenous.

How would this expansion of the mainline multiplayer races into sub races be accomplished?

5. Half of dunefolk units could pass for loyalists in terms of appearance.

I really don't know what you're talking about. The dunefolk units are very distinct from the loyalist units. I don't think I could ever mistake one for another.

For one example, if the Arif got renamed soldier or swordsman and he was thrown into the loyalist faction from its beginning, no one would think him out of place. His armor is a greyer tinge than most loyalists but more so too is the loyalist heavy infantryman.

6. A one race faction means fewer reasonable balancing options.

Maybe you have a point here. I wouldn't object to adding a roc unit (probably as an upgrade to the falcon line), and I might be willing to entertain the idea of adding a jinn line to the faction.

Also, if their mount animals were something more unique and memorable than horses that would open new opportunities. Rhinos, camels, war elephants or something mythological maybe.

7. Missed opportunity to be fully creative for likely final mainline multiplayer faction.

I have no idea whether dunefolk will be the final mainline MP faction, but I don't see it as being defined mostly by what it lacks. Rather than "a faction without magic", it's more like "a science-based faction".

If they had siege machines, ornithopters, steam punk robots or similar such things, I could agree they are clearly the science based faction. Like the dwemer from the elder scrolls universe.

But they are pretty close to loyalists technologically (medieval technology). There is one weird flamethrower guy and everything else they use is iron aged or older (like with the herbalist, even many animals know how to eat certain herbs to treat ailments, so no science required).

[name]

unless the racename is used extensively elsewhere that I'm forgetting about,

In the last thread, someone said the race name might be used by the name generator for spawned units. So if dunefolk are listed as race human then they might receive pseudo-western-european-antiquity sounding names. Or the two might not be tied together at all, would have to check the sources.

what's being discussed in this thread is mostly limited to how to now categorize the Dunefolk units in the in-game help.

Then I guess I will vote for Dunefolk and Jinn for the v1.14 release. Keep it vague and uncluttered looking for now.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

I guess I'll wrap my replies in a spoiler tag too to take up less space. (I'll even edit it into my previous post.)

Spoiler:

1. You conveniently ignore, that some races (orcs and humans) are found in very different terrains, that others share terrain (naga & merman in the seas, dwarves and trolls in caves, undead and saurians in swamps, etc.) and even elves have settlements that are not primarily forest (see, e.g., HttT Scenario 19a Snow Plains).

That is all true but the relevance does not detract from the point I am making (in fact it may reinforce it). Races like elves and woses both thrive in forests, drakes and saurians both thrive in sandy environments (and dunefolk too), etc. True. But that is more biological diversity, not less. Each biome hosts some very different species.

The opposite of that is having humans able to go anywhere and beat anyone at their own game. A one size fits all race. Claiming dunefolk are human is making such a standard, despite what the rest of the factions depict.

As far as races being found in places they do not dominate... Sure, how else could the game have any conflicts if everyone stayed home and took no risks? But this does not support the idea that there should be dwarves dominating forests as well as elves or humans dominating the desert as well as drakes or saurians.

I don't see it as humans who are able to beat the desert natives at their own game. Surely they're not as good at desert survival as drakes or jinn, for example. They've just found ways to make up for their deficiencies (for example, their clothing styles). (By the way, I doubt saurians would do well in a desert, particularly the standard ones in the drake faction. I actually don't think drakes are desert-dwellers either; the feel more like mountain-dwellers to me.)

3.
In an argument for race it is utterly repelled by Outlaws vs. Loyalists as both are human and in most cases even both of Wesnoth!

Except that was not the argument I was making. Chaotic humans are visually distinct from neutral dwarves within the knalgan alliance faction. They are visual distinct which makes it easier not to mix them up when planning an attack at a time of day. With dunefolk you have to check the interface to know who is lawful and who is liminal. That was my point.

Looking over the units, I think I can see some visual distinctions between the lawful and liminal units - the latter seem to be generally less well-armoured. That breaks down for the naffat though, and it's also a little subtle, so I suppose it would be fine to try to exaggerate some of these differences to make it clearer which ones are of each alignment.

To expand on point 5: Of course, some races are not one-to-one Tolkien stuff (Naga, Mermen, Undead), but they fit quite nicely into the stereotypes of a tolkienesque world. While I think this goes for the Dunefolk as well (Easterlings + Haradrim), it is the only faction not fitting into the stereotype created by the movies. They are actually something new! This makes them feel strange at the start, but I don't see why they actually would be unfitting for the Wesnoth setting. We already have different human cultures way before Wesnoth -> Wesfolk vs. Green Islanders. Up to now, Wesnoth was simply the only one around on the map.

I have no real issue with this faction culturally, but if culture is all its theme has going for it then it should be represented by existing human units or custom campaign units (like quenoth units). No need for a whole new human multiplayer faction that has unexplained super-human adaptations beyond the game's established canon and theme.

Super-human adaptations? Really? There's nothing super-human about the dunefolk. I don't know why you'd think there is.

The level of adaptation to their environment is very different between these races, though. Merfolk, trolls, and woses are the only ones I could describe as "profoundly" adapted. Well... maybe nagas as well. Elves, dwarves, and orcs are at best lightly adapted to their chosen environment; they're not all that different from the humans, really. As for saurians and drakes, I think we might not have enough data...

I can see how this applies to elves, dwarves and orcs. But elves are partially of the faerie realm, they are not as ordinary as their initial appearance suggests (that is, before some of them sprout dragonfly wings) and orcs in terms of the portraits are quite strikingly not of the human species.

Yeah, elves and orcs (maybe dwarves too) have some significant differences from humans, but not so much that it would be far-fetched to think of an elven culture in a swamp or a dwarven culture in the flatlands, or even an orcish culture in the forest.

I would also throw in undead as being quite strange creatures, particularly the ghosts and ghouls.

The undead aren't really a race of their own. Yes, they're classified as a race for gameplay purposes, but lore-wise, they're probably race-neutral (apart from the fact that humans are seemingly the only race to practice necromancy, but those humans aren't of the undead race even though they're in the undead faction).

Movement type doesn't really reflect solely physical differences. Several units improve their movement on certain terrains over others of the same race. The rangers are a good example. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to create an entirely new base movement type for a human culture that has developed in a drastically different region.

They stay close to the rule though. The most dramatic differences tends to come more from total movement points than move type. You have humans that are lightly armored and nimble and some that can barely move like the heavy infantry. And the same goes for other races (like faster elvish archer versus tougher armored elvish fighter). Yet the terrain advantages and disadvantages stay about the same proportionately. Like the poacher has better defense than other humans in swampland but is otherwise pretty close to normal, IIRC.

If I recall correctly, the Elvish Ranger (possibly also the human Ranger) has better movement speed over swamps. I'm not sure if there are other units with similar specializations though.

Well, I think a better solution for this is... add another dwarf (sub)race. Another elf (sub)race. Maybe another orc (sub)race. You're basically saying "the humans are culturally homogenous, so all races should be", when in face it's more interesting if no race is culturally homogenous.

How would this expansion of the mainline multiplayer races into sub races be accomplished?

I hadn't thought it through in too much detail, but I did mention a few possibilities a bit earlier in this post, so I doubt it would be a massive amount of work lore-wise. (Obviously graphics would be needed, though, which would be a massive amount of work.)

I really don't know what you're talking about. The dunefolk units are very distinct from the loyalist units. I don't think I could ever mistake one for another.

For one example, if the Arif got renamed soldier or swordsman and he was thrown into the loyalist faction from its beginning, no one would think him out of place. His armor is a greyer tinge than most loyalists but more so too is the loyalist heavy infantryman.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. The arif would look kinda out-of-place amongst the loyalists, due mostly to his different style of armour.

Maybe you have a point here. I wouldn't object to adding a roc unit (probably as an upgrade to the falcon line), and I might be willing to entertain the idea of adding a jinn line to the faction.

Also, if their mount animals were something more unique and memorable than horses that would open new opportunities. Rhinos, camels, war elephants or something mythological maybe.

Different mounts could be nice, yeah. Camels, for example, for the light cavalry. The merging of the cavalry lines could be a bit problematic here though.

I have no idea whether dunefolk will be the final mainline MP faction, but I don't see it as being defined mostly by what it lacks. Rather than "a faction without magic", it's more like "a science-based faction".

If they had siege machines, ornithopters, steam punk robots or similar such things, I could agree they are clearly the science based faction. Like the dwemer from the elder scrolls universe.

But they are pretty close to loyalists technologically (medieval technology). There is one weird flamethrower guy and everything else they use is iron aged or older (like with the herbalist, even many animals know how to eat certain herbs to treat ailments, so no science required).

They don't need to use tons of technology to be considered science-based. The naffat and the tabib are both signs of technology. Use of explosives could be another one.

unless the racename is used extensively elsewhere that I'm forgetting about,

In the last thread, someone said the race name might be used by the name generator for spawned units. So if dunefolk are listed as race human then they might receive pseudo-western-european-antiquity sounding names. Or the two might not be tied together at all, would have to check the sources.

The race name is not used by the name generator. The name generator is race-specific, indeed, but doesn't have anything to do with the name of the race.

I'm pretty sure we're going to be sticking to the Arabic-like names for the dunefolk. (And would be disappointed if we didn't.)

[Pentarctagon]

The name generator that's currently used by the Khalifate(soon to be Dunefolk) is not something that I think needs to be changed.

[Deciton_Reven]

I really don't want to quote a bunch just to talk about Cold Steels point number 3, but last I checked the completely lawful human loyalist faction has a neutral human unit called the mage. So we do have a faction that has same race units with different alignments.

[Pentarctagon]

I really don't want to quote a bunch just to talk about Cold Steels point number 3, but last I checked the completely lawful human loyalist faction has a neutral human unit called the mage. So we do have a faction that has same race units with different alignments.

The Mage is lawful, as are all of the Loyalist's standard recruits in the Default era; it's the Red Mage and its advancements that are neutral. The Elvish Shaman is also neutral.

[Deciton_Reven]

Eh, that's a bit shakier ground but it turns out to be no less true that the loyalists do have a neutral unit. In fact maybe even more prevalent that the normal mage being lawful looks so much more in common with the neutral red mages rather than the still lawful white mages, since there is also an argument that the differently aligned units in the Dunefolk "look to similar to tell the difference".

Or you can point to none other than me that confused all the brown cloaks as neutral as to why that might be bad. I'm sure I'd be able to correct myself pretty easily if I did end up in a game where I had mages again, since the sprites actually aren't the only source of information about a unit.

[name]

@Celtic_Minstrel -- responded to your points inside of the spoiler:

Spoiler:

I don't see it as humans who are able to beat the desert natives at their own game. Surely they're not as good at desert survival as drakes or jinn, for example. They've just found ways to make up for their deficiencies (for example, their clothing styles).

But then you have the reverse question of, if minor adaptations like clothing allow fast travel and defense over sandy terrain somehow, why are not humans dominating most other environments besides steppes and deserts and why did such different sentient creatures as we see in the game evolve and flourish? Why not have skillful woodsmen instead of elves, skillful mountain-men instead of dwarves, skillful dunefolk instead of lizardfolks, etc.

The answer to this question I believe is that a choice was made early on in wesnoth's conceptualization and development to use a fantasy setting for its mainline universe rather than a historical or alternate history one. And that is how we got the existing default factions and the game's theme and setting.

Other games like FreeCiv, 0 A.D. and eras within wesnoth's own UMC ecosystem chose the historical route instead. Which is a perfectly fine choice. It was just not the choice made for default era.

(By the way, I doubt saurians would do well in a desert, particularly the standard ones in the drake faction. I actually don't think drakes are desert-dwellers either; the feel more like mountain-dwellers to me.)

Drakes and saurians are the only existing default era races good on sand. It does not slow them down and they get full defense there. This is why you tend to see a bit more sand on smaller maps designed for multiplayer balance and less on the larger ones, because it specifically advantages the mobility focused reptile races that otherwise become too weak on small maps and too strong on the large ones. Mountains are treated more the opposite way as they advantage the mobility disinclined dwarves, so smaller maps have fewer mountains and larger ones have more.

Looking over the units, I think I can see some visual distinctions between the lawful and liminal units - the latter seem to be generally less well-armoured. That breaks down for the naffat though, and it's also a little subtle, so I suppose it would be fine to try to exaggerate some of these differences to make it clearer which ones are of each alignment.

The lawful units are less common than the liminals and are generally more expensive and powerful. I would say they are candidates for becoming things more exotic. Jinn, war elephant riders, steampunk siege engines... somethings exciting and clever but fitting the wesnoth flavor.

Super-human adaptations? Really? There's nothing super-human about the dunefolk. I don't know why you'd think there is.

I mean on par with a person running as fast as an ostrich or swimming half as fast as a dolphin. Being on par with a creature that is much more specialized to do that particular thing exceptionally well.

The undead aren't really a race of their own.

Technically true, but they are an excellent example of what interesting things can be done when embracing the fantasy setting of default era. Their units are visually striking and thematically memorable with a large set of unique abilities (plague, drain, submerge, undead) and rarer abilities (magic, poison, flyer move types) that would be hard to explain or justify in a historical setting.

I hadn't thought it through in too much detail, but I did mention a few possibilities a bit earlier in this post, so I doubt it would be a massive amount of work lore-wise. (Obviously graphics would be needed, though, which would be a massive amount of work.)

Balance complexity would also be greatly increased by proliferation of sub races. It would be an undertaking. It is also worth weighing the cost of changing one faction versus changing all other six to match it.

Different mounts could be nice, yeah. Camels, for example, for the light cavalry.

The khaiyal also has visibly much less armor than the cavalryman and no more armor than the horseman yet has only 6 movement points. This would make a lot more sense if it was using another species of mount, maybe a powerful but cumbersome animal whose piercing attack comes from its own horn or tusk (or a horn or tusk further enhanced by metal adornments attached by its dunefolk rider).

They don't need to use tons of technology to be considered science-based. The naffat and the tabib are both signs of technology. Use of explosives could be another one.

Well the dwarves already have explosives in the form of black powder, so this level of technology would not be unique to dunefolk. In fact dunefolk are largely behind the dwarves in technology since gunpowder came much latter than greek fire incendiaries and was of course way more impactful to history.

Understanding of herbal medicine can be clarified by the scientific process but native peoples that do not even have literacy still possess this kind of knowledge all over our real world.

To really sell as the technological faction, dunefolk would need something more wondrous in comparison to the competing factions than what they currently display. Something that puts even the dwarven hand cannons to shame.

The name generator that's currently used by the Khalifate(soon to be Dunefolk) is not something that I think needs to be changed.

I'm pretty sure we're going to be sticking to the Arabic-like names for the dunefolk.

The name generator does not need to be changed because it produces proper names for individuals. Only common names for unit types needs to be changed to translate into all languages.

What I meant though, is each unit needs to specify in code (WML) which name generator to use. If this is specified at the unit or unit-line level then there is not an issue. If the name generator is specified at the race level then merging two races into one race will have the generator outputting the wrong type of names for some of the units.

The Mage is lawful, as are all of the Loyalist's standard recruits in the Default era; it's the Red Mage and its advancements that are neutral.

Or you can point to none other than me that confused all the brown cloaks as neutral as to why that might be bad. I'm sure I'd be able to correct myself pretty easily if I did end up in a game where I had mages again, since the sprites actually aren't the only source of information about a unit.

After playing wesnoth for over a decade, I had no idea the red mage was neutral before now. I should say that yes, this is quite confusing. The red mage branch should really be made lawful for the sake of sanity.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

I'll probably answer your points in more detail a bit later, but... yes, the name generator is specified at the race level, so the dunefolk do need to be mechanically a separate race from the humans of Wesnoth. That doesn't mean they're not human, though.

[BTIsaac]

That doesn't mean they're not human, though.

I did propose the idea of different subspecies of human, or them and the wesnothians regarding themselves separately for cultural reasons.

[Pentarctagon]

So far it looks like "Human (Dunefolk)" is pretty heavily the preferred name. So unless something changes in the next few days(or if people would prefer a poll be done anyway), I'll create the pull request to change the Khalifate's faction and racename in master this weekend.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

As promised, the responses to ColdSteel in a spoiler tag.

Spoiler:

But then you have the reverse question of, if minor adaptations like clothing allow fast travel and defense over sandy terrain somehow, why are not humans dominating most other environments besides steppes and deserts and why did such different sentient creatures as we see in the game evolve and flourish? Why not have skillful woodsmen instead of elves, skillful mountain-men instead of dwarves, skillful dunefolk instead of lizardfolks, etc.

I really don't get what you're trying to argue here. Why would human adaptability mean they dominate all environments? The other races have other advantages to offset (probably, more than offset) any lesser adaptability relative to humans. Sure, humans can live in the woods, but the elves and wose and faeries are still better at it. Sure, humans can live in the desert, but the drakes and jinn are better at it. But elves and drakes, at least, can also live outside the forest if they so choose.

Drakes and saurians are the only existing default era races good on sand. It does not slow them down and they get full defense there.

Dwarves aren't too bad on sand either; at least, it doesn't slow them down. Their defence isn't that great though.

The lawful units are less common than the liminals and are generally more expensive and powerful. I would say they are candidates for becoming things more exotic. Jinn, war elephant riders, steampunk siege engines... somethings exciting and clever but fitting the wesnoth flavor.

I really don't think they could morph into any of those things. More precisely, I don't think any of those things could fit the role that the existing units fill.

The khaiyal also has visibly much less armor than the cavalryman and no more armor than the horseman yet has only 6 movement points. This would make a lot more sense if it was using another species of mount, maybe a powerful but cumbersome animal whose piercing attack comes from its own horn or tusk (or a horn or tusk further enhanced by metal adornments attached by its dunefolk rider).

This might be an interesting idea.

Well the dwarves already have explosives in the form of black powder, so this level of technology would not be unique to dunefolk. In fact dunefolk are largely behind the dwarves in technology since gunpowder came much latter than greek fire incendiaries and was of course way more impactful to history.

I dunno, while you appear to be correct about the relative times of the two technologies, I'm not prepared to say one is more primitive than the other. (Also, note that gunpowder is still used today, whereas the secret of Greek fire has yet to be rediscovered as far as I know.)

Understanding of herbal medicine can be clarified by the scientific process but native peoples that do not even have literacy still possess this kind of knowledge all over our real world.

I would assume all the races have some understanding of herbal medicine, but the dunefolk's medicine is still much better. The dunefolk healing units are the best in the game for their level. I think this can be reasonably put down to something akin to science (even if it's more on the level of Aristotle). And I don't see why you're even bringing up literacy. You don't need to be literate to science (though admittedly it helps).

To really sell as the technological faction, dunefolk would need something more wondrous in comparison to the competing factions than what they currently display. Something that puts even the dwarven hand cannons to shame.

It seems to me that you're continuously misinterpreting what I've said. I was never trying to sell them as the technological faction. I was trying to sell them as the scientific faction - a culture that values curiosity and knowledge and, as a result, has more knowledge in a number of areas than other cultures. Technology could be one such area, sure, but there are numerous other areas where they could be more advanced, such as medicine, agriculture, or alchemy.

That said, even if they are the technological faction, there's no reason to require that techology to be relevant to war, in which case it would have no effect on the actual unit lines. For example, they could have already invented the printing press, or they might have better standards of sanitation, or any number of things that aren't directly relevant to war.

[name]

As promised, the responses to ColdSteel in a spoiler tag.

Spoiler:

I really don't get what you're trying to argue here. Why would human adaptability mean they dominate all environments?
...
Sure, humans can live in the desert, but the drakes and jinn are better at it.

Basically that is my point of contention-- I do not see how drakes (or saurians) are stronger in the desert than dunefolk in the least.

Dunefolk mobility is unhindered by sand and their defense on such terrain is formidable. I would say they do just as well as the natives. So if humans can match those natives there, it is reasonable they can do the same to the elves in the forest (a less 'extreme' environment than desert) or dwarves on rough terrain, for examples.

What specifically do you mean by jinn? We have talked about adding one or more units to the dunefolk faction inspired by the mythological jinn but currently there is no such unit in mainline, right?

The lawful units are less common than the liminals and are generally more expensive and powerful. I would say they are candidates for becoming things more exotic. Jinn, war elephant riders, steampunk siege engines... somethings exciting and clever but fitting the wesnoth flavor.

I really don't think they could morph into any of those things. More precisely, I don't think any of those things could fit the role that the existing units fill.

Well the naffat is strange in that it not only gets a ranged fire attack but its melee attack is fire based as well. The exact workings of its melee fire attack is also unexplained and undepicted by the sprite.

I see this unit as the top candidate to become a kind of jinn, specifically a fiery jinn (a concept based on selections of the fairly diverse jinn mythos.) Perhaps something like the existing fire elemental unit; a being radiating such heat that mere close proximity would burn you (hence working as a melee attack).

The khaiyal also has visibly much less armor than the cavalryman and no more armor than the horseman yet has only 6 movement points. This would make a lot more sense if it was using another species of mount, maybe a powerful but cumbersome animal whose piercing attack comes from its own horn or tusk (or a horn or tusk further enhanced by metal adornments attached by its dunefolk rider).

This might be an interesting idea.

It seems to me that you're continuously misinterpreting what I've said. I was never trying to sell them as the technological faction. I was trying to sell them as the scientific faction - a culture that values curiosity and knowledge and, as a result, has more knowledge in a number of areas than other cultures. Technology could be one such area, sure, but there are numerous other areas where they could be more advanced, such as medicine, agriculture, or alchemy.

That said, even if they are the technological faction, there's no reason to require that technology to be relevant to war, in which case it would have no effect on the actual unit lines. For example, they could have already invented the printing press, or they might have better standards of sanitation, or any number of things that aren't directly relevant to war.

Besides the better medicine resulting in a superior level one healer as you mentioned before, those kinds of peace time advances have not so much relevance to a multiplayer faction in a tactical level war game like this one. It would be difficult to translate superior agricultural knowledge into a game that does not handle resources like food. For alchemy, the thunderer and (red) mage lines apparently demonstrate such a degree of chemical knowledge is fairly commonplace among the factions.

With only peacetime advances you might end up with an interesting enough culture to explore in a campaign (like wesfolk or quenoth were explored this way) but not enough material specifically relevant to mainline multiplayer warfare to be as compelling and consistent as the default era factions it would be joining.

That is why I threw the idea out there, of dunefolk having some impressively advanced technologies of war relative to the other factions. It would be enough of a thing to help clearly define them based on what they uniquely have (technology) rather than what they uniquely lack (magic, races). It is not so far out either, as there is some reason to believe that primitive steam engines, batteries, mechanical computers and other such devices typically considered exclusive to our modern age were occasionally constructed in some form in the ancient near east. Such devices were just too expensive, weak and unreliable to be used as more than curios, but fortunately wesnoth does have a fantasy setting so you can extrapolate a bit.

So unless something changes in the next few days (or if people would prefer a poll be done anyway), I'll create the pull request to change the Khalifate's faction and race name in master this weekend.

How about creating such a poll which ends at or before that time?

[Vyncyn]

Basically that is my point of contention-- I do not see how drakes (or saurians) are stronger in the desert than dunefolk in the least.

This seems more like a question of balance, to be brought up later when the name discussions are done.

Well the naffat is strange in that it not only gets a ranged fire attack but its melee attack is fire based as well. The exact workings of its melee fire attack is also unexplained and undepicted by the sprite.

The melee attack is a flamethrower and seen in the sprite, the ranged attack is fire arrows.

[name]

Basically that is my point of contention-- I do not see how drakes (or saurians) are stronger in the desert than dunefolk in the least.

This seems more like a question of balance, to be brought up later when the name discussions are done.

Balance probably will not help with this, since both drakes and dunefolk faction concepts are currently:

1. Mobility Focused
2. Alignment Flexible
3. Dominant On Sand

So they largely compete for the same multiplayer balance "turf". Balancing dunefolk to be weaker to drakes than they currently are would likely not involve weakening dunefolk dominance on desert terrains since this is fairly important to their survival against other factions, especially on smaller maps (which compensate mobility oriented drakes with more sand tiles, a balance mechanism the mobility oriented dunefolk take advantage of for the same reason).

The melee attack is a flamethrower and seen in the sprite, the ranged attack is fire arrows.

A flamethrower is more of a ranged weapon though and unlikely to have an effective range any less than the orcish assassin's throwing knives or else you risk cooking yourself.

Further, melee attacks are automatically animated by the engine to show the unit charging forward at its target, which makes the naffat flamethrower gun attack look quite strange and unreadable (to me it looks like he just body slams his opponent and somehow that does fire damage). Yet disabling this animation for this one unit's melee attack would make it look like an ordinary ranged attack, so that really is not a good option.

This is why I think the naffat is a prime candidate for becoming a representation in the dunefolk faction of something from near eastern mythology (the earlier proposed fire jinn).