[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

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BTIsaac
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by BTIsaac »

Whiskeyjack wrote:Uhm, no idea what got you so riled up? The two by far most popular options Dunefolk and Southerners are completely free of any implications about the culture, infrastructure and rulign format of the faction!?
Not even sure what being a nomad has to do with how civilised some people are. MTG gave us nomadic persians with cities on wheels a few years ago. (Hm. Cities on wheels. Now there's an idea.)
EDIT: And I just noticed that someone else also mentioned that.

But apparently there's some mass hysteria going on out there and everybody's accusing everybody of hating one group or another. But coming to a conclusion that "people hate the idea of civilized desert people" just because someone says the word "nomad" is one heck of a stretch.
Last edited by BTIsaac on December 17th, 2017, 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Samonella
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Samonella »

On a different note, I'd say we're ready to move on to phase 2 of the poll? Voting has slowed to a crawl, and the original plan was only 5 days anyway.
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BTIsaac
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by BTIsaac »

Makes sense. Although while I voted Dunefolk, I was expecting it to be the race name, rather than a faction name. Or will they overlap?

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Pentarctagon
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Pentarctagon »

Samonella wrote:On a different note, I'd say we're ready to move on to phase 2 of the poll? Voting has slowed to a crawl, and the original plan was only 5 days anyway.
Good point. The poll actually ended on the 15th, but I'll create the new poll since Turuk hasn't been on in a few days.

Edit - the second poll is up. It will also last 5 days, and everyone now gets two choices rather than three.
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BTIsaac
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by BTIsaac »

I'm a bit confused right now. Wasn't the previous poll for the faction name?

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Pentarctagon
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Pentarctagon »

BTIsaac wrote:I'm a bit confused right now. Wasn't the previous poll for the faction name?
This was the plan, I believe, so that's why there's the second poll(and will be a third poll).
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taptap
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by taptap »

Dunefolk and Southerners
Dune sounds like sand dunes or indeed a book by Frank Herbert. / Southerners sounds like the most connotation free term I can think of in a game where northerners are orcs. And both are bland, but this is only natural when you run fiction by opinion poll. / Samarkand was at least an original proposal, but when people are squeamish about Khalifate, I suppose Tamerlane is a bit too much as well.

The faction isn't unmaintained, it is in mainline. It is just that a lot of people are really unhappy with theme and / or name. I partly understand that, but seriously, lobbying against a faction in a fantasy game isn't a contribution to the fight against the Islamic State.
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mintleaf
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by mintleaf »

Hey Turuk, for the faction poll can we add the name Nomadic Empire? It seems in line with my previous vision, plus it has this poetic almost-oxymoron that I think makes the identity more unique.

edit: Oh wait these are the finalists. Damn.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Pentarctagon »

taptap wrote:I partly understand that, but seriously, lobbying against a faction in a fantasy game isn't a contribution to the fight against the Islamic State.
If someone ever comes remotely close to actually suggesting that, I will be sure to let them know :)
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Xalzar »

taptap wrote:Long story short, the somewhat conservative player base populating this poll can live with Arab inspired nomads, dune-dwellers etc., but absolutely hates the idea of vaguely Arab inspired town-based states. Zombie hordes, dragons, alien invasions, human-alien hybrids... no problem, but don't give us civilised Southrons.
Honestly, I think prosperous exotic city-states with nomad Bedouin-like tribes interspersed is the direction the faction is going. Cities are undoubtely the centre of their civilization. And they are most possibly more civilized than the Wesnoth Kingdom in many ways.
taptap wrote:In my opinion, polls should have no place whatsoever in determining the outlook of factions etc. but it should be largely left to the people designing factions and writing campaigns for it.
We are voting for a name significant only for Multiplayer. The outlook of the faction is not in discussion right now.
taptap wrote:
Dunefolk and Southerners
...both are bland, but this is only natural when you run fiction by opinion poll
Yep, it's a faction name. It needs to be easy. The less strict it is, the better is IMO. It has not the function to provide background to the faction.
taptap wrote:Samarkand was at least an original proposal, but when people are squeamish about Khalifate, I suppose Tamerlane is a bit too much as well.
The city of Dorset in the Northlands has been renamed Dorest because the former is a real city name.
Even Lady Jessica was renamed Jessene because the former is a real female name.
Samarkand is in Central Asia, not in Irdya.
taptap wrote:lobbying against a faction in a fantasy game isn't a contribution to the fight against the Islamic State.
I for one don't want real religions in Wesnoth. You can take all the ispirations you want, but Caliphate is an Islamic term (in whichever form you spell it IMO). Out of respect for everyone, including Muslims, we should not use that name.
Then again, the faction name was not the only problem afflicting this faction: the sum of all of them I think is the cause for the low popularity.

...
Nice to see two of my choices have made it to the second phase! 8)

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mintleaf
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by mintleaf »

taptap wrote:Lobbying against a faction in a fantasy game isn't a contribution to the fight against the Islamic State.
Funny you mention that because most of the existing political sentiments regarding the amendment of the current name stem from exoticism. The posters here with a social agenda want to avoid overly Islamic references not out of fear but out of respect.

I have slightly different personal leanings, however I find it all irrelevant to the game.

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Samonella
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Samonella »

mintleaf wrote:Hey Turuk, for the faction poll can we add the name Nomadic Empire? It seems in line with my previous vision, plus it has this poetic almost-oxymoron that I think makes the identity more unique.

edit: Oh wait these are the finalists. Damn.
Yep, or semifinalists anyway. :/
I'm pretty sure that if Nomad kingdom/tribes had ended up winning then we would have had one more vote to decide between kingdom/tribes/empire (the logic being that they are too similar to not group together; otherwise their votes would be split up). And I'm hoping that if Dunefolk wins we can do the same thing, between it and Dunelanders.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by name »

taptap wrote:In my opinion, polls should have no place whatsoever in determining the outlook of factions etc. but it should be largely left to the people designing factions and writing campaigns for it.
Mainline factions are ultimately maintained and supported by many more people than the original "idea" guy. Even donations from the wider community can be spent on improved or new content for units of mainlined factions. So it is highly autocratic to expect such a top down decision making process to be obeyed for mainline content.

What is more, what we are really discussing here is the 7th mainline multiplayer faction of BfW. It isn't one man's uncompromising vision for one UMC faction among so many others. It is probably the last multiplayer faction that can be integrated due to the enormous strain of balancing so many factions with each other, since for six factions you have 36 possible faction matches to delicately balance, with seven factions you have 49 and if there were ever to be an eighth you would have 64. (It might not even work out with seven, for this reason, as the dunefolk has severe balances issues still).

So the most important thing is that the 7th faction stays true to the consistency and feel of this game and its other factions. It needs to "fit" and compliment the larger game it is a part of, not be too cool for the rules.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Aldarisvet »

I have a couple of words to say why I do not like idea of Southerners positioned as Nomads.
First of all, we have orcs for this. Just look to the race description of the orcs. The orcs is barbaric nation that periodically mades raids on civilized settled nations living in cities.
From the other side, I see a basis of Southerners economy in cattle breeding. Well, if Southerners live in steppe lands, it would be logical. They have huge herds of cattle wandering from place to place because of the deficit of lands covered with grass. There must be some grass because nothing can live in absolute desert (you must eat something). But this does not mean that all southerners are nomads. It would be the same to name Wesnothian Empire "Farmers" just because their economy based on the agriculture. So Southerners can have big cities and culture still despite the major share of their population lives in nomadic style. Same as in medieval Europe where most of the population was rural.
Last edited by Aldarisvet on December 18th, 2017, 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BTIsaac
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by BTIsaac »

I There have been a few mentions of the possibility of moving cities, and a limited number of stable settlements. Note that it's difficult to establish a prosperous and stable settlement in a desert. That would require cultivatable terrain which require water.

Consider this: A limited number of stable agricultural centers by riverside, and a larger number of city-states basically on wheels, travelling between them.

On a related note, the idea occurred to me of making a mobile city in-game unit. I'll expand on that idea in a different thread later, and see if I can personally do something about it as soon as I got my workload off my back.
Last edited by BTIsaac on December 18th, 2017, 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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