[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

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Can-ned_Food
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Can-ned_Food »

Aldarisvet wrote:
Can-ned_Food wrote: Here's a full list:
  • Conquerors
  • Invaders
  • Newcomers
  • Southerners
I think it is obvious that we should avoid any connections between such things as invading and arabian theme. For me renaming of the current name of the faction serves for the same thing. Can we have high-cultured civilized southerners not some agressive horde? We have orcs for this already.
Well … you are correct that some people will have a moreso limited perspective on this than others. To me, every empire in the past has expanded by sending emissaries who were escorted by a demonstration of military force — an incentive both as threat and for confidence. The Babylonians, and later the Medo-Persians, the Romans, the English et al. (Those are some of the larger or more widespread ones which come immediately to mind.) None of those were “aggressive hordes”, and certainly did not think of themselves as such, though they were often not well received by the natives.
Even so, I think Newcomers seems like a decent enough, and rather non–conflated, option that hasn't been considered as much as it should.
mintleaf wrote:Although premature, I think for efficiency we should already remove the options that garnered the least attention.
Actually, wouldn't it be best to simply wait for the second run of the poll? Adding one or two — but no more — additional choices shouldn't throw things off by too much.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by name »

mintleaf wrote:
Cold Steel wrote: This is actually an argument for not having the dunefolk be just more humans but instead changing them to be multi-racial or even fully another race from humans (with their own unique qualities and concept to match). "Race: Human" is already full of units, overflowing with them in the in game help menu.

Forest people are not humans but elves... Mountain people are not humans but dwarves... Cave people are not humans but trolls... Swamp people are not humans but saurians... Tundra people are not humans but orcs...

Dune people are just humans?
Race doesn't always equate to species, just as we used to equate (and still do) the words ethnicity and race. Mongols and Indians are races, just as Wesnothian? Loyalists and Dunefolk Nomads are races.
You are talking about real world nomenclature.

But in Wesnoth "race" really does mean (at the very least) a separate species as the word is used with this meaning in every case throughout the game. And no interbreeding between Wesnoth races can produce offspring (unless this aspect of lore is also changed) which fits the textbook real world biology definition for the term "species".

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mintleaf
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by mintleaf »

Samonella wrote:]I don't think a revote is needed; it doesn't look like anyone would be changing their vote towards something that isn't already in the top 4. Also, Nomad Kingdom is already on the list.
Can-ned_Food wrote: Actually, wouldn't it be best to simply wait for the second run of the poll? Adding one or two — but no more — additional choices shouldn't throw things off by too much.
Alright that's fair. I just assumed that a lot more people were concerned about the misunderstanding that we were talking about Faction Name and Race Name. But yes it's just 2-3 individuals. Also I feel a bit sad that Nomadic Empire wasn't included. It has a certain ring to it. The almost oxymoron sparks some curiosity. But yes, that is fair.
Cold Steel wrote: But in Wesnoth "race" really does mean (at the very least) a separate species as the word is used with this meaning in every case throughout the game. And no interbreeding between Wesnoth races can produce offspring (unless this aspect of lore is also changed) which fits the textbook real world biology definition for the term "species".
Ah, you are right. Although if we refer to them as Dunefolk, and if stated clearly in the lore that they are human, I think it'll be understood that they are of the same race. It does initially sound like an inconsequential issue of semantics, but it gets complicated when we deal with the official in-game and website unit listings. At that point, should they be considered Human or Dunefolk? If they are considered Human, do we bunch them up in the Human unit list? Or do we add Dunefolk to the list and then call the previous Humans something else like Wesnothians or Loyalists or something of the sort? These options mostly feel inelegant, so I'm glad you brought up the issue.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Caladbolg »

Cold Steel wrote:But in Wesnoth "race" really does mean (at the very least) a separate species as the word is used with this meaning in every case throughout the game.
Can't this be easily resolved by tacking 'human' at the end? Like race=Dunefolk human? There are a lot of variations of elves in the game so this case could be dealt with in an analogous manner, no? E.g. is the race of desert elves 'elves' or 'desert elves' or 'Quenoth elves' or just 'Quenoth'? Whatever the case, we could deal with these humans the same way.

It just occured to me that 'Southron (empire/kingdom/etc.)' or just 'Southron' could be a good faction name. It essentially means the same as 'the southerners' but it has that archaic ring to it.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by name »

Caladbolg wrote: Can't this be easily resolved by tacking 'human' at the end? Like race=Dunefolk human? There are a lot of variations of elves in the game so this case could be dealt with in an analogous manner, no? E.g. is the race of desert elves 'elves' or 'desert elves' or 'Quenoth elves' or just 'Quenoth'? Whatever the case, we could deal with these humans the same way.
The goal for mainline content is not easiness but quality and consistency.

The UtBS elves are single-campaign-specific customs units, just like the singleton unit types used in campaigns for named characters like Deoran or Lady Jessene. They do not show up as a multiplayer faction and are not balanced for multiplayer, either against the default factions or on standard maps. They also exist in the distant future when normal elves are likely extinct or have evolved into them, so they cannot interact or be directly compared with each other.

If they were multiplayer available in the first place, they would for all the above reasons exist in their own era, separate from the default era.

Can-ned_Food
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Can-ned_Food »

Different species are different races — it is just that they are rarely compared as such, excepting fantasy fiction invoving aliens or other nonhuman sentients.
Ergo, the other race descriptions should be further qualified with additional distinction whenever there is added a new race — or subspecies, if you will — of same species as an pre-extant race.

So many newly suggested name have come since the poll. Why aren't we thinking of poor Turuk?
Does anybody want me to compile them all?
For each one, I would attach which of these it would also describe in addition to [multiplayer_side] name=:
  • [race] name=
  • [side] user_team_name=
    Admittedy, not quite; really the name of the faction as they call themselves.

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Turuk
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Turuk »

Can-ned_Food wrote:So many newly suggested name have come since the poll. Why aren't we thinking of poor Turuk?
I know right? So many things to account for in one poll.
mintleaf wrote:Also I feel a bit sad that Nomadic Empire wasn't included.
I included only two options at the end of Dune and Nomad with Tribes and Kingdom, but obviously we could alter that accordingly if Empire was truly that desired since there would still have been a need to choose between Tribes and Kingdom already if it made it that far.
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pyndragon
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by pyndragon »

Tangent warning!
Cold Steel wrote:And no interbreeding between Wesnoth races can produce offspring (unless this aspect of lore is also changed) which fits the textbook real world biology definition for the term "species".
I've seen this mentioned a couple of times in this thread, and I'm curious as to the basis of this.

One might argue that it just makes sense from a scientific perspective, but this is fantasy.

You argue that lore suggests as much, but NR says "Although Tallin [human] faced many challenges as the head of the Northern Alliance, his marriage with Eryssa [elf] was serene and filled with happiness. Together they had one son, about whom were written many legends."

Additionally, if we look at other fantasy worlds this is rarely the case; see D&D or LotR, for example.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by name »

Turuk wrote:I included only two options at the end of Dune and Nomad
Wait a minute, that gives me an idea. "Dune Nomads"!

Another faction name option is born. ;)
pyndragon wrote:
Cold Steel wrote:And no interbreeding between Wesnoth races can produce offspring (unless this aspect of lore is also changed) which fits the textbook real world biology definition for the term "species".
I've seen this mentioned a couple of times in this thread, and I'm curious as to the basis of this.
The developers' reasons for there being no half-breed or hybrid races is explained in this discussion.

Some quotes from that thread for brevity:
Jetrel wrote: The problem with half-breeds is it really, really grounds things that are supposed to be fantastic and alien. It firmly establishes elves/dwarves/etc as being biologically similar to humans. The problem is that this locks out all of the awesome stuff that makes fantasy worthwhile. Like, if you look at much more traditional "fair folk" literature, most of the fair folk were horrifying, amorphous things that were only assuming human form and speech for the purpose of interacting with them. At other times, they were transient things that didn't exist in the real world, and would only fade into existence during conditions that causes the real world and the world of magic to overlap (full moons, storms, etc).

In a lot of fiction, dwarves literally were born from stone, and sometimes were entirely made of stone - the gnomes in "Wizard of Oz" were this.
thespaceinvader wrote: Firstly, I'm a biologist. Elves and Dwarves and Humans are different SPECIES. By definition, that means that they cannot interbreed (or, at best, they can produce only sterile offspring, but even that is unlikely).

Secondly: If we're going to make them different races (as opposed to species), fine, but that kind of limits the amount of different races we can have within each species. What about wesnoth's equivalent of the chinese, the arabs, the australian aboriginals, africans, Bornean pygmies etc etc etc? What about the elvish and dwarvish and orcish equivalents of the same?
thespaceinvader wrote:That's another reason. That's actually probably the overriding reason for avoiding half-breeds, actually. All fluff aside, putting them in has at the very least the potential to quadruple the workload for art and units. More, if we allow them all to interbreed with each other as well as humans.

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GunChleoc
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by GunChleoc »

Vyncyn wrote:
Kwandulin wrote:Apparently, people are able to learn non-original english words such as "orcs" or "elves", but are magically not able to learn "arif" or "naffat"? If the faction becomes more present in the game, the learning barrier will quickly fall down.
Orcs and elves are commonly used in a lot of fantasy. Also, these are only the names of the races; The individual units still have english names.
Of course you would automatically learn the names by playing enough, but this still means confusion for new players. Having english names to describe the role of the unit and only using a foreign prefix (or an english prefix) is a lot easier to understand.
I think the real problem is that there are too many of them to learn at once. It's like entering a room with 20 strangers and trying to remember all their names at the same time - that's already difficult enough when you are familiar with the names themselves, and a lot harder to do if the names are in a foreign language.

Personally, I would have great fun with them being in Arabic script even, but I'm a linguistics geek :lol:

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Eagle_11 »

Cold Steel wrote: This is actually an argument for not having the dunefolk be just more humans but instead changing them to be multi-racial or even fully another race from humans (with their own unique qualities and concept to match).
Turning them into a multiracial faction would not only help to further distanciate off real-world entities we rather would not reference but also help to get them closer integrated into our fantasy setting.
The thing here that should be kept is that they are an primarily human civilization, their society can be similar to Wesnoth in structure but more tolerant to the presence of non-human races, primarily due to not having any sylvan rebels around.

Can-ned_Food
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Can-ned_Food »

Here is the compilation that nobody wanted.
  • : * [race] name=
    : - * faction name — vis à vis
    : - [side] user_team_name=
    : - and the like
    : - - * votes
    : - - - ! already used by a different faction in another era
  • Clans &
    - * __ !
  • Desert &
    - * __ !
  • Dune &
    - * 10 -
  • Dunefolk
    * * 25 -
  • Dunelanders
    * * __ -
  • Imperialists
    - - __ !
  • Khalifate — i.e. no change
    - * 09 -
  • Khalidi
    - * __ -
  • Newcomers
    - - __ -
  • Nomad &
    - * 07 -
  • Sand &
    - * __ -
  • Sandfolk
    * - 05 -
  • Sons of the Sands
    - * 03 -
  • Sons of Zamarkand
    - * 05 -
  • South Sun &
    - * __ -
  • Southern &
    - - 04 -
  • Southerners
    - - 18 -
  • Sultanates
    - * 09 -
  • Wandering &
    - * __ -
  • Xalid
    - - 08 -
  • Xalīdı
    Xalıdı
    Xalidı
    Xalidi — et al.
    - * __ -

    Where the “&” indicates that the final form could be something either suffixed or prefixed, with any conjunctions and such necessitated for grammar — e.g. ‘of the’ phrases, — by one of these:
    • Empire
    • Kingdom
    • Nomads
    • Tribes
    • Warriors

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by SigurdFireDragon »

I think there’s some slight drift off topic starting to occur.
Let’s keep this simple.
I would like to see this done in time for 1.14

Keep in mind that race name is just a container in the in-game Help to hold a group of units that tend to share common features, with a description for this group, and also a construct by which names and traits are distributed to units in-game.

Using something like Dunefolk or Dunelanders for race name completely avoids the ‘are they human’ issue here, because that is simply covered by how the unit sprites look, and the description provided for the race (which is still needed).
GunChleoc wrote:...I think the real problem is that there are too many of them to learn at once. It's like entering a room with 20 strangers and trying to remember all their names at the same time - that's already difficult enough when you are familiar with the names themselves, and a lot harder to do if the names are in a foreign language....
I agree that this is a big part of what’s wrong with the unit names. And it appears there is no benefit for this difficulty being imposed on players. So I would like to see easy to grasp names, in the style of existing mainline unit names. The list proposed by mintleaf is good, and any adjustments can be discussed after faction and/or race name is settled.
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Can-ned_Food
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Can-ned_Food »

So far as concerns race description, I already wrote something which included the most information and had as little fluff as necessary. Actually, though, I simply moved some text around.

Code: Select all

    description= _"The {race_name } are human, much like the northerly Wesnothians. Despite that common ancestry, they are an example of how much two people can differ simply by the weighted effects of culture and climate. They are most comfortable operating in terrain and environments common to them:  the deserts and hills of their southern lands. Moreover, they fight best during the liminal conditions at either dawn or dusk, corresponding to the time when desert temperatures are the most tolerable."
I agree that a lot of people have really ballooned this thing — of which I certainly did my share, — but I think it was more than simply name for race, for faction, and names for units:
Inherent in all that was some question as to whether it was necessary to revise the cultural motif and story behind the faction — and I don't mean the [multiplayer_side] faction.

All in all, though, I would venture to say that, since people have said their piece, the current Wesnoth.org devs can now review the opinions and make decisions.
And, of course, with that I am done here. Pardon me if my interest seemed inordinate; I thank you for reading. 8)

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Iris »

Wesnoth.org ≠ The Battle for Wesnoth Project, just FYI, even if the latter happens to coincidentally be a superset of the team running the former.
Author of the unofficial UtBS sequels Invasion from the Unknown and After the Storm (now available for Wesnoth 1.14).

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