[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

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Xalzar
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Xalzar »

Aldarisvet wrote: I mean we have a mix of very different types of names here in the vote that can be used for different purpuses and I cannot understand what we vote for.
We are voting for the Multiplayer Faction name.
The name for MP does not need to be extremely accurate, for the faction identity we have faction description, unit descriptions, race name, unit names and campaigns.

@all who keep saying that Dunefolk is wrong because of Falcons: well I guess Woses are not Rebels either, and Adepts and Bats are not undead, and Saurians are not drakes. It's just a MP faction name!
It only needs to be simple enough, coherent with other MP faction names, and maybe not too strict to impede creativity for the faction when used elsewhere. This last point is arguable, after all nobody forbids to use Orcs in southern regions if it makes sense, just because their faction for MP is named Northeners; nor Humans are restricted to be loyal to the rightful heir of Wesnoth because they're Loyalists; and Dwarves and Outlaws don't have to be allied in every campaign.

Slightly off-topic: @all who keep mentioning Khalifas and Khalifates, I think those names are to be discarded because they have an intrinsic religious meaning. Other unusable names with this logic are Muezzin, Sheikh.
That is, if we keep leaving real world religions out of the game, which is a matter we could wrestle with when we discuss unit names in later date. Just anticipating my position about this.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Eagle_11 »

race name: Technically, it should be human. Since they are humans :doh: However, since we dont want the racial description page of human race to become one giant block of text(assuming they are to get an description of their own detailing their realm and such, also factoring in we may get even more human civilizations at some point in the future) its logical to seperate them into 'Southern Humans' as to not clutter up the racial description page way too much.
unit names: In my mod have used an prefix in combination with english unit name that follows after. I think the similar method could be used here.
Mainly, that was done because i imagine there are more than one groupation of southern men to be present in their own realm. Primarily, as i did not want to open up a new race tag for each groupation, and secondarily that im not that creative when it comes to unit names, rounded them all up within "southern human" and used the 'prefix+unit name' method to distinguish between the various units belonging to the various factions.
Fe. Saracen Footman, Nomad Infantry, Harami Robber, et cetera.
We could use the term 'Saracen'(which ironically means just that, "an southern man") as an prefix in their unit descriptions.

As for the options present in the poll, Dunelanders may perhaps sound nicer than Dunefolk.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by BTIsaac »

I'd just like to point out that Dunefolk would sound better as a race name than a faction name. Just sayin.

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Aldarisvet
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Aldarisvet »

Xalzar wrote: Woses are not Rebels either, and Adepts and Bats are not undead, and Saurians are not drakes
Woses are not elves but can fight with elves against Asheviere's loyalists and hence can be rebels too.
Concerning that we have 'Undead' multiplayer faction that includes adepts and bats and, especially, 'Drake' multiplayer faction that includes saurians - this really is a fault, something that misinforms a user. I dont think we should repeat faults. I think later someone could create better names for these factions that these 'racial' names.
For example, "Lizard's coalition" would be something that better fits this drakes+saurians union.
And undead multiplayer faction can be renamed, hmm, to "Dark Legion", something like that :D
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Samonella
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Samonella »

Xalzar wrote:
Aldarisvet wrote: I mean we have a mix of very different types of names here in the vote that can be used for different purpuses and I cannot understand what we vote for.
We are voting for the Multiplayer Faction name.
The name for MP does not need to be extremely accurate, for the faction identity we have faction description, unit descriptions, race name, unit names and campaigns.
Aldarisvet brings up a really important point. I'm pretty sure Xalzar is right, but I'd like to see Turuk confirm.
Eagle_11 wrote:As for the options present in the poll, Dunelanders may perhaps sound nicer than Dunefolk.
Ooh, yes I really like the sound of Dunelanders. It could work as the multiplayer faction (I'd still prefer Southerners for that) and could work as the civilization name (I'd still prefer something like Xalid) but is really great as a general, informal term for the members of that civilization.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

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Eagle_11 wrote:race name: Technically, it should be human. Since they are humans :doh: However, since we dont want the racial description page of human race to become one giant block of text...
This is actually an argument for not having the dunefolk be just more humans but instead changing them to be multi-racial or even fully another race from humans (with their own unique qualities and concept to match). "Race: Human" is already full of units, overflowing with them in the in game help menu.

Forest people are not humans but elves... Mountain people are not humans but dwarves... Cave people are not humans but trolls... Swamp people are not humans but saurians... Tundra people are not humans but orcs...

Dune people are just humans?
Eagle_11 wrote:As for the options present in the poll, Dunelanders may perhaps sound nicer than Dunefolk.
It is a bit longer but it has a certain charm of its own.
Aldarisvet wrote: Concerning that we have 'Undead' multiplayer faction that includes adepts and bats and, especially, 'Drake' multiplayer faction that includes saurians - this really is a fault, something that misinforms a user. I dont think we should repeat faults. I think later someone could create better names for these factions that these 'racial' names.
Then the "rebels" faction should get a proper name too. Many years ago, people suggested the name "Sylvans" to reflect their factional emphasis and dependence on forest environments.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Turuk »

Samonella wrote:Aldarisvet brings up a really important point. I'm pretty sure Xalzar is right, but I'd like to see Turuk confirm.
Yes, we are voting for the MP faction name.
Aldarisvet wrote:Woses are not elves but can fight with elves against Asheviere's loyalists and hence can be rebels too.
Concerning that we have 'Undead' multiplayer faction that includes adepts and bats and, especially, 'Drake' multiplayer faction that includes saurians - this really is a fault, something that misinforms a user. I dont think we should repeat faults. I think later someone could create better names for these factions that these 'racial' names.
For example, "Lizard's coalition" would be something that better fits this drakes+saurians union.
And undead multiplayer faction can be renamed, hmm, to "Dark Legion", something like that
I know a number of people agreed with this sentiment, but to use Adlarisvet's comment as an example - yes, the faction names as they stand now are flawed in my personal opinion. I cannot readily find where someone stated this previously, but the current faction names were clearly given based on how those groups were viewed based on HttT or a generic name for factions introduced later. I would love to see Loyalists, Rebels, Drakes and Undead receive an update as well, but that is a tangent I would like to avoid for this thread. I do not want to downplay the relevance that we should not repeat the same fault.
Kwandulin wrote:I'd first like to check, if it is even needed to change the unit names. Apparently, people are able to learn non-original english words such as "orcs" or "elves", but are magically not able to learn "arif" or "naffat"? If the faction becomes more present in the game, the learning barrier will quickly fall down.
While this is part of the later conversation around unit names, I agree - I have played numerous computer games or read books where units or elements are introduced that are unfamiliar and yet learned easily. I do not think names have to be basic to be acceptable, but no, this is not a final ruling on that.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Vyncyn »

I don't think all the MP factions need to be renamed. They have their flaws, but I think they describe their theme well enough.

Loyalists: Are basically the Kingdom of Wesnoth. They could be renamed as "Kingdom of Wesnoth" but this would just sound more complicated. And using "Humans" as faction name doesn't work either, because there are many humans in other factions too.

Knalgan Alliance: Arguably the best faction name. While the faction itself doesn't include orcs (lorewise some orcs were part of this alliance too), the faction does include the two biggest parts of the knalgan alliance (dwarves and humans)

Rebels: Sylvans might be a improvement, but this excludes the human mages. The most famous Mage/Elven alliance is in Httt, were they are Rebels.

Undead: True they have bats and humans, but the undead are the most dominant part. In my UMC i have named a similar faction "Necromancers". Most undead don't have a will on their own, so naming the faction after the "masters" and ignoring their summons and pets would make sense to me.

Northerners: I think "great horde" might fit better, but most of the orcs are in the north and the current name doesn't exclude nagas,trolls and goblins.

Drakes: Yeah, maybe change that. If we had a mainline drake/saurians campaign we could base the faction name on some lore...

Khalifate/Dunefolk or whatever: I wouldn't focus too much on falcons as they are just pets (like the undead's bats). Imo it would be best to choose a broader name that doesn't exclude khalifate living in a city and the ones who have a normadic lifestyle.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Aldarisvet »

Ok, given I got a new information, can I revote please? I saw others somehow did that before.
I want to put my vote from Dunefolk and Dune to Southerners. I still hope for Dunefolk racial prefix, I can accept that southerners' state (or one of them) can be called Xalid Empire, but multiplayer faction names is more general thing. Factions represents not races or states but !forces! in the conflict.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Can-ned_Food »

Well, though it looks like I'll end up repacking the era with different faction names anyway, I would like to remind people that I did suggest two names which were single word — one was compound — and which described the faction's presence in Wesnoth rather than any intrinsic or more objective quality. Here's a full list:
  • Conquerors
  • Invaders
  • Newcomers
  • Southerners

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Aldarisvet »

Can-ned_Food wrote: Here's a full list:
  • Conquerors
  • Invaders
  • Newcomers
  • Southerners
I think it is obvious that we should avoid any connections between such things as invading and arabian theme. For me renaming of the current name of the faction serves for the same thing. Can we have high-cultured civilized southerners not some agressive horde? We have orcs for this already.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Turuk »

Vyncyn wrote:I don't think all the MP factions need to be renamed. They have their flaws, but I think they describe their theme well enough.

I would not say all of them, but Drakes and Undead suffer from that flaw and the Loyalists and Rebels are perspective based names. I like Knalgan and Northerners fits well enough.
Aldarisvet wrote:Ok, given I got a new information, can I revote please?
This should be doable - in the poll at the top, uncheck your current choices, check your new choices, and submit vote again.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by mintleaf »

Turuk wrote:
Aldarisvet wrote:Ok, given I got a new information, can I revote please?
This should be doable - in the poll at the top, uncheck your current choices, check your new choices, and submit vote again.
It seems only you see this option, because neither he nor I can see what you described.
Cold Steel wrote: This is actually an argument for not having the dunefolk be just more humans but instead changing them to be multi-racial or even fully another race from humans (with their own unique qualities and concept to match). "Race: Human" is already full of units, overflowing with them in the in game help menu.

Forest people are not humans but elves... Mountain people are not humans but dwarves... Cave people are not humans but trolls... Swamp people are not humans but saurians... Tundra people are not humans but orcs...

Dune people are just humans?
Race doesn't always equate to species, just as we used to equate (and still do) the words ethnicity and race. Mongols and Indians are races, just as Wesnothian? Loyalists and Dunefolk Nomads are races. Oh and yes it's still a matter of discussion as to whether the Dunefolk are the same "species race" as the humans of the Loyalist faction. It's the prevailing opinion that they are of different culture and ethnicity but still human, but that's yet to be decided.
Last edited by mintleaf on December 12th, 2017, 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by mintleaf »

Aldarisvet wrote:What the word 'faction' means then? Does that mean 'a multiplayer faction' or not? For you, "orcs" and "elves" are names of factions or not?
Yes this is explained in the main post. There is a distinction between faction and race name. Although yes it wasn't clear enough in the poll. I propose that we redo the poll and add your wording as "Multiplayer Faction Name". And I also want Turuk to include the Nomadic Empire or Nomadic Kingdom. I believe the best option for faction name should describe their government.

edit: Although premature, I think for efficiency we should already remove the options that garnered the least attention.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Samonella »

mintleaf wrote:I propose that we redo the poll and add your wording as "Multiplayer Faction Name". And I also want Turuk to include the Nomadic Empire or Nomadic Kingdom.
I don't think a revote is needed; it doesn't look like anyone would be changing their vote towards something that isn't already in the top 4. Also, Nomad Kingdom is already on the list.
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