[mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by name »

Turuk wrote:
mintleaf wrote:The remaining issue for me are the Naffat. They don't quite fit with this identity as I would believe that the logistics of fire technology wouldn't function very well in a nomadic society. But they could even be the capital's elite troops or something of the sort.
I think that could fit with their function - there is a case to be made that if most of the people live in non-permanent structures, there would be a much stronger awareness of the destructiveness of fire.
I guess it will come as no surprise that I suggest replacing the human naffat with a fiery form of jinn (while keeping its statistics about the same). Especially since this unit has only fire based attacks (both melee and ranged) it would make sense that it be something more mythical or fantastical than a human being (even one using an anachronistic second world war style backpack flame thrower; a device seemingly quite a bit too sophisticated for even the byzantine greeks).

The already made and in-game "Fire Elemental" sprite could be used to represent this 'Fiery Jinn'.

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Turuk
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Turuk »

Cold Steel wrote:(even one using an anachronistic second world war style backpack flame thrower; a device seemingly quite a bit too sophisticated for even the byzantine greeks)
I had to go look back through my notes to remember where I was going with the description for the Naffat line. It was mostly based on the hand pump technology that the Bynzantines used to propel Greek Fire, taken a bit further to fit in with a fantasy setting. In my mind, it was priming a hardened glass or clay jar with a pump to create pressure in the chamber that allows it to be manipulated by firing through a crude gun.

Mind you, I was writing the descriptions to fit the sprites and what I knew of the creator's intentions for consistency.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Crow_T »

I'm surprised Dunefolk is so popular, it sounds like sandy hobbits as opposed to bada%$ warriors. The word Dune in a fictional setting is a bit reminiscent of Dune, may be best to avoid. Also, the word "folk" reminds me too much of US politicians "folks this, folks that" :roll: But, once again democracy rears its ugly head :lol:

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Can-ned_Food »

Thats why my personal favorite now, for the MP faction, is Dunesdwellers — though you could also do Duneswarriors or Warriors of the Dunes or the like. I.e.the plural form.

Remember that one of the most effectual impediments to technology and health is not intelligence or lack of engineering, but lack of infrastructure. There's no reason to think that these Xalīdı couldn't have a millennia–old heritage of culture and science, mostly uninterrupted by major domestic disputes or foreign invasions.
Can-ned_Food wrote:Though they are rather monotheist, believing in a supreme deity whose dominion is the entire world, they do permit hierarchies of immortal gods and mortal princes. They traditionally believe their Xalid to preside over all mortal races in direct line with their deity.
Keep in mind that none of such a backstory would be necessary in any of the in–game description texts. It is the sort of thing which a faction designer and fictional worldbuilder needs to consider, however.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by mintleaf »

Cold Steel wrote: I guess it will come as no surprise that I suggest replacing the human naffat with a fiery form of jinn (while keeping its statistics about the same). Especially since this unit has only fire based attacks (both melee and ranged) it would make sense that it be something more mythical or fantastical than a human being (even one using an anachronistic second world war style backpack flame thrower; a device seemingly quite a bit too sophisticated for even the byzantine greeks).
Your latter point is precisely why I find the Naffat more interesting than the Jinn. Technology should be sparse and strange, just like magical creatures should. If other factions had something like the Thunderer, then the hand cannon wielding dwarf would lose its wonder.

On the other hand, there are some/few magical creatures utilized by other races, save for Woses, Ghosts (in a sense), maybe Mermen and Naga (not quite mystic), and general magic users like Mages, Oracles and Druids. A Jinn could add to the mix if done well. As a base unit you have to be careful not the cheapen its wondrous identity. In a faction without magic users, a Jinn unit feels enslaved.

Replacing the firetrooper with the Jinn really undermines the scientific personality of the faction. We would be left with only the Hakim, who could again be mistaken for another magic healer. I feel the Naffat are very important to the current identity of the faction.
Can-ned_Food wrote:Thats why my personal favorite now, for the MP faction, is Dunesdwellers — though you could also do Duneswarriors or Warriors of the Dunes or the like. I.e.the plural form.
It doesn't roll of the tongue very well for me. I do sort of understand how Dunefolk sounds a bit impotent to some, but to me it sounds fantastical and mysterious.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Can-ned_Food »

Actually, I don't prefer Dunefolk because it sounds too similar to something I am using for one of my own fictional worlds. Not sure how that makes any sense, but there you have it. A need to diversify, maybe?

So, I've been working on a whole backstory and premise revision for the people of this faction. For some reason; now that it looks like my TXE era will be far off, if ever, I guess I want to compile and publish what I've got because it is unlikely that I'll ever do anything with it — at least insofar as pertains to Wesnoth.
Would anyone here be interested in that at all? If so, where would you like to see me post it? Writer's Forum?

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by mintleaf »

Can-ned_Food wrote:For some reason; now that it looks like my TXE era will be far off, if ever, I guess I want to compile and publish what I've got because it is unlikely that I'll ever do anything with it — at least insofar as pertains to Wesnoth.
Would anyone here be interested in that at all? If so, where would you like to see me post it? Writer's Forum?
Yes please post it if you have existing material ready. I'd love to read it. What does TXE stand for?

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by pyndragon »

I feel a bit late to this thread, but I'd like to comment a bit on some of the proposed names.
name comments
Dunefolk strikes me as workable, but as Crow_T mentioned I'd be concerned about evoking the Dune universe more than necessary.
Dune/Nomad Tribes/Kingdom don't flow well enough IMO.
Likewise for Desertfolk.
The Sons of <x> names seem more like a label for a sub-faction than a complete culture: for example, an order of assassins or flamethrower specialists.
Southerners is workable but perhaps too generic.
Southern Kingdom is generic while perhaps poorly representing the governance of this people group.
Sultanates seems too tied to the real world IMO.
Xalidi is the name of a UMC project that sounds like it's planning to remain distinct.
One term I have not seen suggested is "Clans", which would carry desirable connotations of semi-nomadic culture while not demanding such. This would also tie into any Mongolian thematic elements we might wish to integrate with the faction. This could be used either as a modified noun (Southern Clans, Desert Clans) or as a modifier itself (Clanfolk, Clansfolk).

As far as the magic/non-magic debate goes, I'm a fan of a compromise that could be drawn from a backstory of watching the rise of the Lichlords:
proposed lore wrote:The Clansfolk practice a unique form of magic, developed after watching the destructive rise of the Lichlords. Its express purpose is to avoid the necromantic utility presented by the magic of other peoples, especially the Kingdom of Wesnoth.
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by gnombat »

pyndragon wrote:One term I have not seen suggested is "Clans", which would carry desirable connotations of semi-nomadic culture while not demanding such. This would also tie into any Mongolian thematic elements we might wish to integrate with the faction. This could be used either as a modified noun (Southern Clans, Desert Clans) or as a modifier itself (Clanfolk, Clansfolk).
That seems confusing, given that the term "Clan" or "Clans" is already commonly used to refer to someone else.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

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Turuk wrote:Mind you, I was writing the descriptions to fit the sprites and what I knew of the creator's intentions for consistency.
I don't know if I ever read the descriptions for the leveled naffat, it is just that when I see the flamethrower guy sprite show up in game, it jumps out at me as something from StarCraft or similar. It is like if the dwarvish thunderer had a submachine gun.
mintleaf wrote: Replacing the firetrooper with the Jinn really undermines the scientific personality of the faction.
Well this touches on a wider flavor problem with the whole "magic versus technology" idea of the original khalifate concept. Which is that there is no clear distinction between these two things in the wesnoth story world.

The dwarvish thunderer line certainly appears to use gunpowder. But then so too does the red mage's attack honestly look like gunpowder, to the point it seems quite intentional on the part of the designers, more so when you read the unit descriptions for both unit lines. The wesnothian mages also gain their power from studying arcane knowledge out of books, rather than through a purely spiritual or mental training process, which can support the interpretation that they actually wield technologies that seems too impressive to be anything less than supernatural to ordinary rabble. Or it could be something more. It leaves us to wonder.

I really like this subtle, mysterious handling of "magic" and its true nature or natures.
mintleaf wrote: On the other hand, there are some/few magical creatures utilized by other races, save for Woses, Ghosts (in a sense), maybe Mermen and Naga (not quite mystic), and general magic users like Mages, Oracles and Druids. A Jinn could add to the mix if done well. As a base unit you have to be careful not the cheapen its wondrous identity. In a faction without magic users, a Jinn unit feels enslaved.
It could just as easily be that the jinn are the respected leaders or gods of the desert nomads. From wikipedia:
Wikipedia wrote:Archeological evidence found in Northwestern Arabia seems to indicate the worship of jinn, or at least their tributary status, hundreds of years before Islam: an Aramaic inscription from Beth Fasi'el near Palmyra pays tribute to the "ginnaye", the "good and rewarding gods", and it has been argued that the term is related to the Arabic jinn.
Also interesting inspiration:
Wikipedia wrote:In the Islamic sense, jinn is used in two different ways:
[...]
2. A separate intelligent species of invisible being predating mankind.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by zepko »

Probably it is late to add items to the pool, but this just came to my mind.
What do you people think about Nomads of the Dunes/Sands/Deserts? I mean, one can be a nomad anywhere, but these people have a strong identity related to their favorite environment.

Regarding my ideal view of this faction: I like the backstory that they are a race of humans that came from the old continent to settle in the deserts south of Wesnoth. They are totally without magic (either for moral/ethical/historical reasons or because their magic knowledge has been lost through the centuries, possibly as an effect of their migration, but this can be hopefully explored in some future mainline campaign). When they settled in the southern deserts, they founded one/some major cities which have some form of loose central authority, but most people form self organized (nomadic) groups of merchants, traders, explorers, warriors...

Personally, I don't like the idea of jinn being part of this faction. Just my opinion.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Vyncyn »

Faction name seems to describe the relation to the people of wesnoth rather than how the races see themselves.
For example orcs wouldn't describe themselve as "northerners" and elves wouldn't be fond of the term "rebels" either, but those names mirror their role in history. Likewise the khalifate might be seen more as savages from the south, so it's ok if their faction name doesn't perfectly describe their culture. I think details about government, culture, and religion fit better in race description.
As a more practical approach: Faction name should be rather short (2 words max imo) as to not make the buttons in game unnecessarily large.

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Elder2 »

I would like to suggest a name: Naphtha People

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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by Whiskeyjack »

Voted Dunefolk and Nomads.

For one thing, the fantasy of a nomadic people with a constant capital as described by mintleaf sounds awesome to me and for previously stated reasons I don't like a lot of the suggestions:

- our world ties
- cementing the ruling structure offhandedly by faction name instead of properly with campaigns, timelines, race and unit descriptions, etc.
- Southerners is too generic and mirroring Northerners too much. Though it might be the best fit thematically as most factions are named after their relation to Wesnoth during HttT.

Pro's of the two (and Southerners, I guess):
- dune evokes the main terrains of the faction, as other people pointed out.
- Dune and Nomad are good unit prefixes.
- easy and simple. I think the more complicated stuff is better left for more developed lore (and as this thread proves, there are tons of interesting ideas out there and not a lot of unity on the subject...)
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Re: [mainline] Renaming Khalifate for Wesnoth-ian identity

Post by mintleaf »

Whiskeyjack wrote:Voted Dunefolk and Nomads.

For one thing, the fantasy of a nomadic people with a constant capital as described by mintleaf sounds awesome to me and for previously stated reasons I don't like a lot of the suggestions:
Thank Turuk for that!

I would have voted Nomads too but I seem to have spent both my votes on Dunefolk by accident? I like the sound of Nomadic Kingdom or Nomadic Empire more though.

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