[UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
Post Reply
User avatar
SolaEvoli
Posts: 11
Joined: September 28th, 2015, 8:00 am

[UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by SolaEvoli » September 28th, 2015, 12:54 pm

A
---B
C

A fights C
The unit in hex-B is watching the fight and touches hex-A and hex-C.

Perhaps it could get a little bit experience as it does at least endanger itself by staying so close to at least one enemy.

I am not suggesting the full amount, just 1-2 EXP points, especially if the combatants are advanced ranks of the observer-unit.
Last edited by SolaEvoli on September 28th, 2015, 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
zookeeper
WML Wizard
Posts: 9726
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 10:40 pm
Location: Finland

Re: [engine]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by zookeeper » September 28th, 2015, 1:33 pm

SolaEvoli wrote:I am not suggesting the full amount, just 1-2 EXP points
How does that fit in with the fact that the usual combat XP is 1-2 points? In most cases the observer would get as much as the combatants.

User avatar
SolaEvoli
Posts: 11
Joined: September 28th, 2015, 8:00 am

Re: [engine]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by SolaEvoli » September 28th, 2015, 2:31 pm

When a child barely speaks a language (english, german, doesn't matter) and it listens just every now and then to parents, does it not get better at speaking the language?

I saw a movie about American history - wars where riffles where still charged manually with powder and ball-shaped lead.
Not all men were fighting. There was a first and a second row (or is it called a line? I saw the german translation ;) ), the second row on a hill as there was a limit of on how many peoples can stand behind each other and still fire over each other.

There were leaders watching how their soldiers fight, do they not learn from their faults?
http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?t=34904#w0fpi7 wrote:Healing/leadership should give experience
Background: It is felt that leveling-up some units with healing or leadership abilities is too difficult, and they should get experience through user of their special ability.
Result: It is felt that allowing units to gain experience without risk would make leveling-up of such units inevitable. Further, one of the motivating examples of this is so that units such as shaman can have a hope to level up in multiplayer. It is pointed out that if the experience gains were high enough to allow shaman to level up in a single multiplayer game, then it would be trivial to gain the best type of healing unit in a campaign very quickly.
«to gain experience without risk» is the key in this response.
When standing next to both fighters, they are at risk.

IRL every time you think about something, remind it by watching it, you have a chance to see something important you previously didn't understood or noticed (( example: Players which don'T know about the square law and learn about it while seeing a replay and later dreaming of it ))

That was the thought behind this. Give units extra experience based on tactical placement.

User avatar
Ravana
Moderator
Posts: 1816
Joined: January 29th, 2012, 12:49 am
Location: Estonia
Contact:

Re: [engine]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by Ravana » September 28th, 2015, 2:38 pm

This does not require engine change, it can be easily done with WML.

User avatar
beetlenaut
Developer
Posts: 2190
Joined: December 8th, 2007, 3:21 am
Location: Washington State
Contact:

Re: [UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by beetlenaut » September 28th, 2015, 5:10 pm

zookeeper wrote:When standing next to both fighters, they are at risk.
But you know it is less risk, and that's probably the real reason you want this feature--so you can level weak units with less risk. You also haven't answered zookeeper's objection, which is a very good reason not to do this.

If you want, you could create a special unit that learns this way (using WML like Ravana said), but I'm sure the game won't be changed this way.
Campaigns: Dead Water
The Founding of Borstep
Secrets of the Ancients

User avatar
SolaEvoli
Posts: 11
Joined: September 28th, 2015, 8:00 am

Re: [UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by SolaEvoli » September 29th, 2015, 5:00 am

As I see it, the risk stays the same.
Your unit has to be near an enemy and ally both fighting each other. Itself could get a hit too.

But it would be a bit faster getting exp this way than through a lasthit with a unit only dealing about 5 damage a turn without it dying straight afterwards.

It is one thing if you have to consider losing a unit and eventually lose it to bad luck.
It is another if pure luck decides wether you can access a Level-2 unit earlier than your enemy.

The only issue with this I see for skirmishers which may participate in many fights without risk, as they can go away again after entering a hex next to the enemy unit.

DwarvenWarrior
Posts: 26
Joined: October 17th, 2015, 10:15 pm

Re: [UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by DwarvenWarrior » October 28th, 2015, 1:29 am

I like this idea

Otengam
Posts: 28
Joined: April 1st, 2016, 12:20 am

Re: [UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by Otengam » April 1st, 2016, 12:31 am

I like the idea of getting more XP. Gaining XP is slow enough as it is and the justification for observers gaining experience/perspective does seem sound. To limit this though, perhaps a slight tweak would be to gain some or 1 observer XP only if the victim unit dies rather than for every battle.

fabi
Developer
Posts: 1223
Joined: March 21st, 2004, 2:42 pm
Location: Germany

Re: [UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by fabi » April 1st, 2016, 1:10 am

A mp modification that works that way (giving 1 xp for watching a unit die) can be coded easily.

I guess it would be quite popular if uploaded to the addon server.
"Wesnoth has many strong points but team and users management are certainly not in them." -- pyrophorus

User avatar
Eagle_11
Posts: 733
Joined: November 20th, 2013, 12:20 pm

Re: [UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by Eagle_11 » April 1st, 2016, 6:56 am

Ah, i can do that since have abilities like mentor, battle tutor, etc.
For healer to get xp per unit healed: i can simply filter the adjacent to have ability ids of healing(and variants) and give second unit +xp through event, but how would i check the unit(to be healed) being actually healed by second unit(the healer) ? otherwise you can park injured unit into village, put healer next and watch it rack up exp for free.

edit: oh wait i can just filter location of primary unit to be not village.

fabi
Developer
Posts: 1223
Joined: March 21st, 2004, 2:42 pm
Location: Germany

Re: [UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by fabi » April 1st, 2016, 7:22 am

Just filter for the healed unit not being on a village.

edit: Ninja'd :-)
"Wesnoth has many strong points but team and users management are certainly not in them." -- pyrophorus

User avatar
Eagle_11
Posts: 733
Joined: November 20th, 2013, 12:20 pm

Re: [UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by Eagle_11 » April 1st, 2016, 9:33 am

Making the 'healers getting exp' thing.
Doesnt give the exp, how to properly state this: {VARIABLE_OP healers.experience add "$($healers[$i].experience + $expforheal)"}

Code: Select all

    [event]
	    id=healersgetxp
        name=side turn
        first_time_only=no
        [store_unit]
            [filter]
                ability=healing
                side=$side_number
            [/filter]
            variable=healers
            kill=no
        [/store_unit]
            {FOREACH healers i}
		        [store_unit]
                [filter]
                    [filter_adjacent]
                        id=$healers[$i].id
                    [/filter_adjacent]
		            [filter_side]
		                side=$healers_side
		            [/filter_side]
					[filter_location]
					    [not]
						terrain=*^V*
						[/not]
					[/filter_location]
                     variable=healed
                     kill=no					
                [/filter]
				[/store_unit]
                {VARIABLE expforheal 0}
				{FOREACH healed j}
                    {VARIABLE_OP expforheal add 1}	
                {NEXT j}
                {CLEAR_VARIABLE healed}
				#how to tell this line:
			    {VARIABLE_OP healers.experience add "$($healers[$i].experience + $expforheal)"}
		            #[modify_unit]
			            #[filter]
				            #id=$healers[$i].id	
			            #[/filter]
			            #experience="$($healers[$i].experience + $expforheal)"
		            #[/modify_unit]
				{CLEAR_VARIABLE expforheal}
             {NEXT i}
        {CLEAR_VARIABLE healers}	
    [/event]

User avatar
Ravana
Moderator
Posts: 1816
Joined: January 29th, 2012, 12:49 am
Location: Estonia
Contact:

Re: [UMC]Experience for observers adjacent to 2 fighters

Post by Ravana » April 1st, 2016, 9:52 am

If you change variables, then unstore, if you modify, then dont unstore.

Also, currently healing would change array(not unit!), and if you changed it to unit, then with 2x+y xp. So, if you add, then add only y, if you overwrite, then set it to x+y.

Also, better continue implementation discussion in WML Workshop.

Post Reply