My proposal for the undead

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Idea is?

Okay
2
18%
Needs work (add suggestion)
3
27%
Bad for game (list reason why)
6
55%
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Total votes: 11

SaintDust
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Joined: May 12th, 2004, 2:49 pm

My proposal for the undead

Post by SaintDust »

We all know the undead need units the branch lvls.
But i was thinking about unndead and the trouble they have.

First, and against the drakes.
They really struggle. Unless you mass ghosts, and or adepts.
But whats the point in playing a game when all you got to do is use one unit.
The reason they suffer is because of the fire damage, which is what most of the undead units suffer from most. The secound worst is impact.
Holy is not a major issue with most races, since most units don't use holy, most units in game have impact or fire.

Next against the rebels (elves)

If he masses woses and defends his leader with them, it's almost impossible to win. The massive damage the wose deal plus the impact damage bonus kills every unit the undead has, even the ghosts.
The ghost does resist damage, but when the one attack is that high, and the ghost defense is low, he dies very easy.

So why not have a unit that has a resistance to both fire and impact. But takes damage from pierce blade and holy.

What kind of unit.

Well i think most undead lack a sort of intelligence of their own, and need to be lead by mages, or a powerfull human fighter.
A unit with a 2nd level leadership ability would suffice.
I don't know name.. Something like
Soul Guardian.
Soul Keeper

Stats

Description= The (name) has traveled to great lengths in fondling
the powers of the undead manipulating them to his advantage.

Allignment= Chaotic
Unit type=Fighter Mage
Hp=35
Mv=5
Exp=25

Attacks
Melle
8-2(blade, short sword)
Range
8-1(fire, magic)

Resistances
Blade=+10%
Pierce=+10%
Holy=+50%
Fire=-50%(30%?)
Impact=-30%(50%?)

Terrain Movements/Defense
Plains=1/40%
Mountians=2/60%
Hills=2/60%
Forest=2/50%
Snow=3/20%
Desert=3/30%
Swamp=2/40%
Shallow Water=3/20%
Deep Water=nill


2nd level

Stats

Bouns (Leadership)
Description= The (name) has traveled to great lengths in fondling
the powers of the undead manipulating them to his advantage.

Allignment= Chaotic
Unit type=Fighter Mage
Hp=40
Mv=5
Exp=/

Attacks
Melle
10-2(blade, short sword)
Range
8-2(fire, magic)

Resistances
Blade=+10%
Pierce=+10%
Holy=+50%
Fire=-60%(40%?)
Impact=-40%(60%?)

Terrain Movements/Defense
Plains=1/40%
Mountians=2/70%
Hills=2/60%
Forest=2/60%
Snow=3/20%
Desert=3/40%
Swamp=2/20%
Shallow Water=3/20%
Deep Water=nill
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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel »

Another related idea - I'm not so terribly hot on the idea of ghouls and walking corpses being weak to fire - especially ghouls.

Nor should they be weak to impact, either.
Walking corpses could be slightly weak to them, but the ghouls should not be at all. In fact, ghouls could even be slightly resistant to impact.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Re: My proposal for the undead

Post by Elvish_Pillager »

SaintDust wrote:If he masses woses and defends his leader with them, it's almost impossible to win.
Undead are incredibly overpowered. They don't need ANY improvements.

This strategy you describe is a sure losing strategy, because you can just take over the whole map, capture all the villages, and then kill his Woses with any unit type you like. (Ghouls and Skeletons tend to be good at it, in particular. Also, don't be stupid; attack them at night, when their damage is low and yours is high.)
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
SaintDust
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Joined: May 12th, 2004, 2:49 pm

Post by SaintDust »

Elvish
The woses kill skeletons.. They don't have a defense. And woses regenerate. They are extremly hard to kill.. And if undead are overpowered then why doesn't anyone ever use them.. I never play anyone and see them use them.

They are by far not overpowered. They are underpowered. They have least lvl advance ments.
Dwarves, Loyal, and Rebels all have more units.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

SaintDust wrote:Elvish
The woses kill skeletons..
The inherent fallacy in your argument is that you consider your units dying to be a bad thing... you have loads more to back them up, it doesn't MATTER if a few of them die. They just keep coming.
They don't have a defense.
You don't need a defense in an all-out offense.
They are extremly hard to kill..
3 skeletons vs. a Wose have nine attacks, 80% of which hit, estimated at 7 hits, each for 9 damage, which multiplies to 63, more than a Wose's max-hp. Likely kill in one turn != extremely difficult kill.
And if undead are overpowered then why doesn't anyone ever use them.. I never play anyone and see them use them.
It's not fun to use overpowered units. (that's why I don't use them, at least.)
They are by far not overpowered. They are underpowered.
Hey... if you've never played them or seen them played, how can you have any idea about that?
They have least lvl advance ments.
Dwarves, Loyal, and Rebels all have more units.
So what.. you only need level 0s and 1s, the ridiculously-powerful level 2 undead aren't even necessary. Advancements are rare in MP, and hey wait a minute!
Undead: Skeleton, Skeleton Archer, Ghoul, Vampire Bat, Walking Corpse, Dark Adept, Ghost. 7 units.
Rebels: Elvish Figher, Elvish Archer, Elvish Scout, Elvish Shaman, Wose, Merman, Mage. 7 units.
7 !> 7.
Loyalists: Spearman, Bowman, Cavalryman, Horseman, Mage, Fencer, Heavy Inf. 7 units.
7 !> 7.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
SaintDust
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Post by SaintDust »

u still ignore my point on drakes.
and
yes i have played them
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

SaintDust wrote:u still ignore my point on drakes.
I ignore almost all points on drakes.
SaintDust wrote:yes i have played them
SaintDust wrote:why doesn't anyone ever use them
You use them, what do you mean nobody uses them?

Anyway, if you say "I have played them" how do you know that your opponents were not simply more skilled than you? I do not see why having played with a faction and been unable to win constitutes any significant evidence towards their balance. I'd bet that if you could take your pick of faction, and give yourself 150 gold, and give me Undead and 100 gold on a reasonable map, I'd win over 50% of the time.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
SaintDust
Posts: 310
Joined: May 12th, 2004, 2:49 pm

Post by SaintDust »

elvish

i have played them.. i don't anymore cause i feal they are to easy to beat.

and like i have stated they need more balancing.
which is what i am trying to do..
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

SaintDust wrote:elvish

i have played them.. i don't anymore cause i feal they are to easy to beat.
You now have two choices: Learn how to play better with them, or keep not playing with them. I suggest the latter, since that way you will be less annoyed and complain less.
and like i have stated they need more balancing.
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! The Ghoul and Ghost need serious rebalancing, as does the Walking Corpse. They all need to be nerfed.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Darth Fool
Retired Developer
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Post by Darth Fool »

Hmmm.... I think the only way this issue will be silenced is if EP and SD play a head to head match, with EP playing undead of course...
cobretti
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Joined: February 19th, 2004, 4:38 pm

Post by cobretti »

Elvish Pillager wrote:...The Ghoul and Ghost ...
[really offtopic mode on]
Mmmm, remembering the old times and games is great, thanks EP for the involuntary reference... 8)
[really offtopic mode off]

Those units are unbalanced, true, but the most unbalancing thing is that undead have so much unbalanced units together. You almost always have the option to use effective unbalanced units against any enemy you face.
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Another undead-rules replay, in the latest version of this awesome game. He had no chance whatsoever.
Attachments
The_Isle_of_Anduin_Turn_22-CHEAP.zip
(23.68 KiB) Downloaded 130 times
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
Awkward Syntax
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Location: Michigan

Post by Awkward Syntax »

Get rid of Hp overflow by drain attacks. It's the cheapest thing I've seen so far in this game.

47/23 Hp on a wraith... man...
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Elvish_Pillager
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Awkward Syntax wrote:Get rid of Hp overflow by drain attacks. It's the cheapest thing I've seen so far in this game.

47/23 Hp on a wraith... man...
That doesn't make an ounce of difference when the Wraith never loses HP in a single combat anyway.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
SaintDust
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Joined: May 12th, 2004, 2:49 pm

Post by SaintDust »

1. i do believe the wraith is extremely powerfull.
putting a limit on how much hp you can drain over max hp.
like a 5-10 drain added onto max hp.

2. If they don't add a new unit. The should fix the ghoul, and make him resist both fire and impact.

3. Give the 1 lvl walking corpse leadership ability. A lvl 1 can only lead lvl0 uinits. So it should not effect most of the units of the undead. But it could effect the walking corpses at lvl0.
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