[mainline]Elvish Ranger/Avenger & "backstab"

[Ranger]

Has anyone read Elvish Avenger's description lately? No? But I'm sure you rememeber that it describes the tactics they use: they silently surrond the enemy, then wait in ambush until enemy units clash with your forces and then attack then from the back. First time I've read this description I thought they would have a backstab skill, developed in this kinda scenarios but nope. So I wanna ask: do you feel like they should have this ability?

EDIT:

I guess I should elaborate on that. I feel that current Ranger could be a more interesting unit if he his "guerrilla warrior" aspect was more pronounced. Without his ambush ability he's just a rather a generic strong-ranged-average-melee unit, like MasterBowman,Dragonguard,Slurbow... (almost any 3rd lvl ranged attacker), he was more of a harrasment specialist, maybe worse at holding the enemy in frontal assault but invaluable at hunting down single units.

P.S. in b4 "you stole this idea from UtBS!". I'm not even going to deny that. its not like it changes anything, right?

[tekelili]

I dont think presence of word "back" or mention to elusive skills should grant backstab, wich from my point of view is related to skill to aim and injure vital body parts. Otherwise any unit with skirmisher ability should also be granted with backstab.

[beetlenaut]

Are you saying they shouldn't have ambush then? Or do you think that ambush plus backstab is totally fair and not overpowered?

[Ranger]

Are you saying they shouldn't have ambush then? Or do you think that ambush plus backstab is totally fair and not overpowered?

Yes I agree that if we are to add backstab ability to current Ranger/Avenger unit, it would probably be the best mixed-fighter in the game.
But, I was more err...contemplating about how the idea itself would look like. I wish that it would emphasize the unique-ness of the unit without making it overpowered, so some nerf in basic melee attack is likely to take place.

I dont think presence of word "back" or mention to elusive skills should grant backstab, wich from my point of view is related to skill to aim and injure vital body parts. Otherwise any unit with skirmisher ability should also be granted with backstab.

Errr....well the wesnoth is a pretty abstract game and it doesnt have to be so that there is only one way to utilize a tactical advantage to deal more damage to the enemy so one can choose to think whatever he feels more apt for this kind of unit. For example I feel that if the skill mecchanics worked as you described, why would unit need to attack from the back? And one would think that every marksman in the game has this ability (namely to "to aim and injure vital body parts") so why dont have backstab?
And granting every skirmisher unit in the game with backstab would work only if the whole game were to be rebalnce anew.It's more feasable to create a separate Era for that.

EDIT:
While I'm waiting for a Necromancer to ressurect this thread I ran some Numbers:

As giving E.Ranger backstab with his current stats would be...overpowered for a 2lvl unit, sooo a compromise of 1.5 current max damage with backstab should be good.
In order to do this he would have to have an attack that have total damage of (1/2)*(7*3)*1.5, ergo his new maximum damage in melee would be around 16. While Elvish Archer has only 2 strikes but I feel like in order to better demonstrate his superior skill at melee the Ranger should have 3.
So a 5 - 3 blade melee backstab.
While Avenger would have [(1/2)*(8*4)*(1.5)/3] - 3 = 8 - 3 blade melee backstab
Does this look overpowered to you?

[Sir_Cryer]

i dont think it would match elf style. Elfs are about tradition, honour and wisdom.

[Tom_Of_Wesnoth]

i dont think it would match elf style. Elfs are about tradition, honour and wisdom.

However, the style of the unit in question is stealth and ambush, which would imply the ability to backstab.

[tr0ll]

it could imply a sort of "surprise" which could result in the ranger being able to attack first that one time. that would be impractical to implement as it would require giving the ranger's player an action out of turn. (he wouldnt automatically want to attack, so you have to give the player a choice.)
adding player-defined triggers might be an interesting mod to consider.

[SolaEvoli]

i dont think it would match elf style. Elfs are about tradition, honour and wisdom.

Elves use bows. Even their meele fighters have bows as second weapons (unlike fencers or spearman-advancements).

For me, they represent a rather peaceful faction which uses Opportunity when forced into a war.

I agree on a third attack (meele, meele+backstab, ranged) with meele+backstab having 1. more strikes (more likely to hit at least once) and 2. more overall damage (perhaps 1.5x).


But personally I would prefer if it has a hit&run attack (used by some campaign, added with AMLA) and recover something like [up to 2] or [max 1/2 of the move-points from before it attacked].
Or some other survivability skills.

[Bitron]

I had the same idea and used it for my Archer-Unit in my Faction, the "Vilkai". Feel free to try how it works
Oh, and. tell me if its overpowered or not...

[Dixie]

Without his ambush ability he's just a rather a generic strong-ranged-average-melee unit, like MasterBowman,Dragonguard,Slurbow... (almost any 3rd lvl ranged attacker), he was more of a harrasment specialist, maybe worse at holding the enemy in frontal assault but invaluable at hunting down single units.

Yeah, if you're willing to go down that road, you could also say:
- The mage without is magical weapon special is just a weak-ass archer.
- The white mage without healing is just a weaker, holy-elemental red mage.
- Every special unit in the game, without their special ability, are just a weaker version of a blander unit of a similar level.

It doesn't really hold...

[Sulik]

Going this way, Assassin should have nightstalk, so he can come close enough to backstab his opponent. Also Thief should steal money from enemy units, give addtional income when he stands on village, or even steal money from you as he is criminal. Mermans need submerge, and Gryphon Riders with other flying units should fly above units. Ghosts walking trough the walls, swordsmans who can use pierce attack with their swords or even impact using fists.

If you are trying to make this game more realistic you are going to crash. If you are trying to make it more interesting and fun adding new features and improving old ones, you are looking at wrong direction.