[mainline] 3+ level Advancements

[Ranger]

The following snippet was taken from this site's FPI list:

[Why] Most units should [not] have more than 3 levels of advancement:

>

Background: Lots of people think that the typical 3 levels of advancement for each unit is insufficient, and that most units should have 4, 5, or even more levels of advancement.
Result: The developers feel that 3 levels is enough. Avoiding the creation of ‘super units’ is high on the developers’ priority list, and even if there were level 4+ units, the most powerful units wouldn’t be more powerful than the current level 3 units. This would also drain art resources, as well as reduce the contrast between units — too many units would seem like boring repetitions of other units.
It is thought that a better, more interesting way to do things would be to have more alternate paths of advancement within the 3 levels rather than have 4+ levels of advancement.

This can be taken as a general rule of developers of Wesnoth: simplicity and diversity. Most units in mainline do not have an advancement tree that goes after 3rd level because, as was written before, they either would be a boring repetition of previous levels with increased stats, draining artists resources, or an overpowered killing machine, like Ancient lich for ex.

I propose to either cut all 4th level advancements of mainline units, or nerf them and put in game as an alternate 3rd level advancement.

It will affect the following units:
>Great Marshal
>Great Mage
>Elven Sylph
If any of these were instumental to someone's strategy of winning the game....well my condolences

[ChaosRider]

The following snippet was taken from this site's FPI list:

[Why] Most units should [not] have more than 3 levels of advancement:

>

Background: Lots of people think that the typical 3 levels of advancement for each unit is insufficient, and that most units should have 4, 5, or even more levels of advancement.
Result: The developers feel that 3 levels is enough. Avoiding the creation of ‘super units’ is high on the developers’ priority list, and even if there were level 4+ units, the most powerful units wouldn’t be more powerful than the current level 3 units. This would also drain art resources, as well as reduce the contrast between units — too many units would seem like boring repetitions of other units.
It is thought that a better, more interesting way to do things would be to have more alternate paths of advancement within the 3 levels rather than have 4+ levels of advancement.

This can be taken as a general rule of developers of Wesnoth: simplicity and diversity. Most units in mainline do not have an advancement tree that goes after 3rd level because, as was written before, they either would be a boring repetition of previous levels with increased stats, draining artists resources, or an overpowered killing machine, like Ancient lich for ex.

I propose to either cut all 4th level advancements of mainline units, or nerf them and put in game as an alternate 3rd level advancement.

It will affect the following units:
>Great Marshal
>Great Mage
>Elven Sylph
If any of these were instumental to someone's strategy of winning the game....well my condolences

If Wesnoth developers agree with you and even delete 4th lvls then what is sure for 100% will be another one who says that 3rd lvls are also op and killing machines... They will continue this insane idea and delete 3rd lvls. Then we will have another one with idea to delete 2nd lvls, and in the end we will have in Wesnoth only 0 lvls...

Only because someone don't like higher lvls it doesnt mean they shouldn't exists. What you propose is most insane thing which I ever seen at this forum.
For everyone who can't handle higher lvl units and that they are still in game (even in mainline era), well my condolences.

[Eagle_11]

It will affect the following units:
>Great Marshal
>Great Mage
>Elven Sylph

but why not the Armageddon Drake or Ancient Lich ? :p

I propose to either cut all 4th level advancements of mainline units, or nerf them and put in game as an alternate 3rd level advancement.

Ah, c'mon. How many times and where do you fight an lvl4 at all ? certainly not within our everyday multiplayer.
that being said lvl4's are supposed to be killing machines, considering:
-how hard it is to get one.
-how long it takes to get one.
the only case you would see an unit leveling up to 4 is the case of an horrid stalemate of epic proportions and therein those are to function as the final solution, the stalemate breaking saviour of the day.
Also in late scenarios they make worthwhile bosses.

[Implementor37]

Actually, doesn't multiplayer have a key which prevents L4 advancements ? I do know that in campaign creation you have to specifically allow L3 to L4 advancements, so its not like they show up a lot. And the Grand Marshal (like the Ancient Flagbearer in several UMC eras) has L4 leadership--which is capable of providing a small boost to most max-level units. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing alternate L3 advancements (if done right it could introduce a lot of variety on battlefields), but cutting L4 should not be an option. You have to specifically script them to show up in any situation via WML, not just advancements.

[Velensk]

The above is simply incorrect. In campaigns you do not have to set pins in order for units to advance to lvl 3 or 4; by default all units follow their specified advancement trails. There is likewise no such restriction in multiplayer.

That said, you only see lvl 3 units in standard multiplayer once in a blue moon and I've never seen a lvl 4 come about under those settings.

[Ranger]

If Wesnoth developers agree with you and even delete 4th lvls then what is sure for 100% will be another one who says that 3rd lvls are also op and killing machines... They will continue this insane idea and delete 3rd lvls.....

Let me stop you right there. I never mentioned that the game should be stripped of it's RPG elements, just that few branches need to be trimmed for it's future benefit.

but why not the Armageddon Drake or Ancient Lich ? :p

Maybe because they are already separated from the main tree?

Ah, c'mon. How many times and where do you fight an lvl4 at all ? certainly not within our everyday multiplayer.
that being said lvl4's are supposed to be killing machines, considering:
-how hard it is to get one.
-how long it takes to get one.
the only case you would see an unit leveling up to 4 is the case of an horrid stalemate of epic proportions and therein those are to function as the final solution, the stalemate breaking saviour of the day.
Also in late scenarios they make worthwhile bosses.

The above is simply incorrect. In campaigns you do not have to set pins in order for units to advance to lvl 3 or 4; by default all units follow their specified advancement trails. There is likewise no such restriction in multiplayer.

That said, you only see lvl 3 units in standard multiplayer once in a blue moon and I've never seen a lvl 4 come about under those settings.

Well, It is after all primary a cosmetic change which shouldnt affect normal gameplay.

[Iris]

What Velensk said.

On single-player, rare L4 and L5 units are perfectly acceptable since campaign designers will specifically account for their (definite or potential) presence in a given scenario. Thus, there is simply no compelling reason to remove the existing rare L4 advancements and unique L4/L5 units.

[Implementor37]

The above is simply incorrect. In campaigns you do not have to set pins in order for units to advance to lvl 3 or 4; by default all units follow their specified advancement trails. There is likewise no such restriction in multiplayer.

That said, you only see lvl 3 units in standard multiplayer once in a blue moon and I've never seen a lvl 4 come about under those settings.

Yes, i should have qualified that statement. The Ancient Lich and the Armageddon Drake (IMO deadliest Lvl 4s) require setting pins in order to advance from Lich or Inferno Drake, respectively. All others are part of the main trees.

[Ranger]

What Velensk said.

On single-player, rare L4 and L5 units are perfectly acceptable since campaign designers will specifically account for their (definite or potential) presence in a given scenario. Thus, there is simply no compelling reason to remove the existing rare L4 advancements and unique L4/L5 units.

...
I dont follow your reasoning here: since the campaign designers would have to balance whatever units they wish to put in their campaign, they could easly enable the advancements to 4lvl of units that have one, if they feel like it.
But personally I see no good reason for the existence of current 4lvl advancments:
GreatMage - what purpose does it serve to have a unit that is essentially the same 1lvl Mage with more damage and health? Is it just to demonstare that he can level into a 4 lvl unit?
The same things are true for GreatMarshall - is it really necessary to have a unit that is essentially a 4lvl General? What does the gameplay/lore gain from this?
I cant say the same about Elvish Sylph but IMHO if the previous two where removed from the mainline advancement tree she would stick like a sore thumb

Here, I cannot be more clear on the matter than this.

[Velensk]

You are clear but your point is shallow.

It hurts nobody that a few trees can reach lvl 4 while others can't. In fact, it's more interesting and diverse this way in the exact same fashion in which some don't even go to lvl 3. Just as you cannot see any reason to have a few lvl 4s nobody else sees any reason to go through the bother of removing them and nullifying the work that was done to include them. You may disagree but I don't think you'll find any leverage or support.