Color change of the movement orb

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by Turuk »

fabi wrote:
Turuk wrote:This is the second time that you have indicated that anyone who wants the old way is wrong, ...
No one who wants the old way back is wrong.
It is only natural for humans to hang on old rules, way of lives, items or habits.
The second line appears to contradict the first, as people are 'hanging on' to the old way instead of converting to the new one. The connotation is that they are resisting something better.

fabi wrote: This is why I alway try to keep the stuff configurable, so that people can adjust stuff to their needs.
Certainly, but why is it now all automatically default? It is configurable, but it was not made simple to configure the old settings. Numerous people have asked how to change the controls back or to alter the orbs.
fabi wrote: Sure, just prove me wrong.
I can point you to numerous scientific works about how human perception works and how this knowledge is used in UI design.
Be prepared to have a hard time, the papers are not easy to read/understand and I am used to scientific argumentation.
So instead of users testing the new method to gauge its effectiveness, it was implemented with the logic of 'why not do it?' and players have to persuade you in the other direction.

Thank you for indicating that I would struggle to keep up with the scientific arguments behind the changes. Additionally, not all standards are applicable to all designs.
fabi wrote:
You have so far not given any validity to the numerous comments (the latest) made about the various changes you have made,
Right, my time is limited and I have spend many of it on the forum answering questions lately.
I will answer to them sooner or later.
So the change will still be made and the discussion/concerns will be handled after the fact or will you engage the community in their concerns before making any more drastic changes?
fabi wrote:
you just note that they don't understand that the new set-up is 'simpler' and 'superior' to the current way.

You make it sound like I have told someone a fool. I did not.
I have done no such thing, I was referencing words from your various posts in response to points raised about the intuitiveness and simplicity.
fabi wrote:
At which numerical point does the 'certain amount of people wanting the old way back' become realization that they could represent a majority and not a minority?
I can't answer this question.
Certainly, so there has to be some sort of decision point reached as to what is default over the other, outside of making it the result of one opinion.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

Duthlet
Code Contributor
Posts: 49
Joined: January 9th, 2007, 8:12 pm

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by Duthlet »

fabi: first of all thanks for providing a way to revert the color changes.
As a supporter of the old colors I see two reasons why they make more sense (just to me, because of the way I see the game):
1. I automatically associate such orbs with traffic lights. Thus I expect yellow to mean something between green and red, which is not the case with the new colors.
2. Since the game is often more about keeping your own units alive than about killing enemies, already moved units are the ones that need most of your attention. Especially since the orb draws attention not only to the unit but also to the hex it is on. Of course, the hexes with units that can't move anymore are the most important: For enemy units I'm usually more interested in knowing where they can move, and own unmoved units are the degree of freedom to push the balance in my favor. They can be used to attack enemy units (usually the minor purpose) and to protect the already moved units at fixed position from attacks of loose enemy units (major purpose in most cases). Their current position is neglectable.
Of course, villages and terrain play a role as well, but I guess noone's considering giving them orbs ;)

fabi
Developer
Posts: 1223
Joined: March 21st, 2004, 2:42 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by fabi »

Duthlet wrote:fabi: first of all thanks for providing a way to revert the color changes.
You are welcome :-)

I must admit that I did not do much to make that happen, the game_config.cfg offered adjustable orb colors before.
Still I will work to make the change more easy and live on after the game got an update.
As a supporter of the old colors I see two reasons why they make more sense (just to me, because of the way I see the game):
1. I automatically associate such orbs with traffic lights. Thus I expect yellow to mean something between green and red, which is not the case with the new colors.
2. Since the game is often more about keeping your own units alive than about killing enemies, already moved units are the ones that need most of your attention. Especially since the orb draws attention not only to the unit but also to the hex it is on. Of course, the hexes with units that can't move anymore are the most important: For enemy units I'm usually more interested in knowing where they can move, and own unmoved units are the degree of freedom to push the balance in my favor. They can be used to attack enemy units (usually the minor purpose) and to protect the already moved units at fixed position from attacks of loose enemy units (major purpose in most cases). Their current position is neglectable.
Of course, villages and terrain play a role as well, but I guess noone's considering giving them orbs ;)
Interesting points.
While playing I am more concerned about forgetting to move my own units and not spotting enemy ones who might make it through my line.

Thank you for your feedback :D

fabi
Developer
Posts: 1223
Joined: March 21st, 2004, 2:42 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by fabi »

Turuk wrote:Certainly, so there has to be some sort of decision point reached as to what is default over the other, outside of making it the result of one opinion.
The different orb colors and the new minimap features were developed together with another developer.
So they are not the result of a single opinion.

User avatar
Crow_T
Posts: 851
Joined: February 24th, 2011, 4:20 am

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by Crow_T »

This may sound counter-intuitive, but what about using white to designate enemies on the minimap, and black orbs in the playing field? White will stand out much more against LB's pallette, which is all medium-dark hues.

User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by Turuk »

fabi wrote:
Turuk wrote:Certainly, so there has to be some sort of decision point reached as to what is default over the other, outside of making it the result of one opinion.
The different orb colors and the new minimap features were developed together with another developer.
So they are not the result of a single opinion.
Ok, fair enough, so two opinions then. Did you ignore the remainder of concerns/points in my post only to address this one, or will those be addressed at a later date as well?

That logic is what I meant before:
Turuk wrote:So the change will still be made and the discussion/concerns will be handled after the fact or will you engage the community in their concerns before making any more drastic changes?
Crow_T wrote:This may sound counter-intuitive, but what about using white to designate enemies on the minimap, and black orbs in the playing field? White will stand out much more against LB's pallette, which is all medium-dark hues.
Hmm, how will the player know the black and white are tied together?
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

User avatar
Crow_T
Posts: 851
Joined: February 24th, 2011, 4:20 am

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by Crow_T »

Turuk wrote:Hmm, how will the player know the black and white are tied together?
By playing for 2 minutes ;) The new minimap colors are not literal translations of environment colors, for something on a small scale readability is most important. Just a thought.

User avatar
Turuk
Sithslayer
Posts: 5283
Joined: February 28th, 2007, 8:58 pm
Contact:

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by Turuk »

Crow_T wrote:
Turuk wrote:Hmm, how will the player know the black and white are tied together?
By playing for 2 minutes ;) The new minimap colors are not literal translations of environment colors, for something on a small scale readability is most important. Just a thought.
Blasphemy! :P That's a good point though, the terrain colors do not seem intuitive at all, it's learned.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time

User avatar
iceiceice
Developer
Posts: 1056
Joined: August 23rd, 2013, 2:10 am

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by iceiceice »

fabi wrote: Regardless of any new features, using red to mark moved units (which don't need much attention any more) is a fault.

This is not based on my subjective feeling or opinion,
it is a scientific fact.

Just show Wesnoth 1.10 to anyone who learned how to design UIs properly.
I have done so.
There is the possibility to study "Medieninformatik" at my university.
That is a mixture between computer science and designing.
They learn how to make Websites and design GUIs and other stuff properly.
...

The friend I have asked to have a look at our UI told me:
"Nice game but the UI is designed fundamentally wrong."

...

At the end most human brains work the same and you can't change that no matter how many people participate in a poll or just state their current dislike.

...

No software project with a sane leadership will disregard design principles which have proven to be sane,
neither should we.
To be clear, I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I want to comment regarding the science of UI design:

There is no denying that there are good universal principles of UI design, and that these can find basis in very simple neuroscience / behavioral science.

But I think you, fabi, take it too far if you say that these rules are set in stone and that to suggest ever to deviate from them is to be in denial of science. Determining how people will react in some setting is always extremely complex -- it is totally implausible that there could be any broad and unfailing rule for any question like this. There can only be guidelines, and every such rule will have exceptions. To suggest otherwise is like suggesting that if a writer ever takes liberties with a rule from "Strunk & White: The Elements of Style" it means they are a bad writer, or conversely that any document which follows those rules to the letter is an example of good writing.

The science is only good if it successfully predicts which design people will be more comfortable with. If experiments with actual people conflict with some part of some theory, that means the theory has a problem, not the people, assuming that the experiment is fair and the people are open minded. No sane software project leadership would disregard the feedback of its actual users in favor of the opinions of someone writing a textbook about what the users are likely to think.

As an additional point consider that design principles change according to the target audience. Even if the wesnoth UI would not win the Steve Jobs seal of approval to be packaged with every iPhone, it could still be possible that it is designed very well for the needs of the typical wesnoth user. Similarly the typical dev might have significantly different preference from the typical user. In my experience, many software developers prefer to use linux over mac os not just because of functionality, but many actually significantly prefer the window managers and general design of a linux system to that produced by Apple. It's obvious that the rules are different for different groups of people, despite your assertion that most brains work the same... different strokes for different folks.
Last edited by iceiceice on January 8th, 2014, 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

Velensk
Multiplayer Contributor
Posts: 3991
Joined: January 24th, 2007, 12:56 am

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by Velensk »

TBH fabi: Considering some of the changes that have apparently been made because of it, I've becoming incredibly underwhelmed by the expertise of whomever claimed Wesnoths UI is fundamentally flawed. Your experience is obviously different but Wesnoths old interface is one of the only things nobody I've ever introduced it to has had problems with (and they've had problems with everything from too few factions, to no actual ranged attacks, to ghosts not being invulnerable, to luck, to the way special abilities works [particularly no active healing abilities]). I don't think that the new one would cause too much of a negative impact (except for a few issues which this thread isn't the place for) but I don't think that it was nice/kind/good to force this through on everyone nor the attitude you've taken toward it.

That said, I don't actually have any problem with it on this issue. I do find the old one more intuitive (traffic light scheme) but I don't have any problem with the new one.
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."

fabi
Developer
Posts: 1223
Joined: March 21st, 2004, 2:42 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by fabi »

color_preferences.jpeg

User avatar
SkyOne
Posts: 1310
Joined: January 3rd, 2009, 7:23 pm

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by SkyOne »

fabi wrote:
color_preferences.jpeg
The works that you have been doing for BfW is recently incredible (well, of course in the past also). I really appreciate this revival. ^_^
Thank you so much.

Many thanks to Turuk, also. :)
Fate of a Princess/feedback thread: "What is in own heart that is the most important, not who you are."
Drake Campaign: Brave Wings/feedback thread, Naga Campaign: Return of the Monster, Saurian Campaign: Across the Ocean
Northern Forces - now on 1.12 server

User avatar
zookeeper
WML Wizard
Posts: 9740
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 10:40 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by zookeeper »

Everything's fine as long as you don't make it a top-level preferences tab (but instead put it behind a button or something in the display tab), and retain the old traffic light defaults.

fabi
Developer
Posts: 1223
Joined: March 21st, 2004, 2:42 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by fabi »

SkyOne wrote:
fabi wrote:
color_preferences.jpeg
The works that you have been doing for BfW is recently incredible (well, of course in the past also). I really appreciate this revival. ^_^
Thank you so much.

Many thanks to Turuk, also. :)
:oops:
zookeeper wrote:Everything's fine as long as you don't make it a top-level preferences tab (but instead put it behind a button or something in the display tab), and retain the old traffic light defaults.
:P

fabi
Developer
Posts: 1223
Joined: March 21st, 2004, 2:42 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Color change of the movement orb

Post by fabi »

color_preferences2.jpeg

Post Reply