[mainline] Weaken the OP LT

Brainstorm ideas of possible additions to the game. Read this before posting!

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Developers

Forum rules
Before posting a new idea, you must read the following:
soul_steven
Posts: 144
Joined: September 5th, 2009, 5:47 pm

[mainline] Weaken the OP LT

Post by soul_steven » December 11th, 2011, 4:03 am

I've said for a long time that the Lieutenant is far to powerful a unit (and many others have agreed with me) for one main reason it has 6 mp. Is there any thoughts on making it a 5 mp unit and how that would affect the way he plays out? I know at first it sounds like a minuscule thing just losing one mp however I feel it will weaken him quite a lot yet still keep him as a effective leader when you get him. Perhaps to compensate for losing a mp he could get more hp or something? Anyways just wanted to hear others thoughts on this and if there is any thoughts on changing him or not. Will write more on it when I get some responses. Thx.

User avatar
Sapient
Inactive Developer
Posts: 4453
Joined: November 26th, 2005, 7:41 am
Contact:

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by Sapient » December 11th, 2011, 5:25 am

What about the Drake Flare? It has one less movement point, but it can fly. If the LT is OP then surely the Flare is as well. Or if the LT is nerfed then the Flare will be next OP leader.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

soul_steven
Posts: 144
Joined: September 5th, 2009, 5:47 pm

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by soul_steven » December 11th, 2011, 5:58 am

Drake Flare is not op for the reason you stated yourself he has 5 mp. In fact I think all 6 mp leaders are op that's another discussion in itself though. I will post some replays tomorrow when I get a chance to show how OP this leader really is and how 6 mp is the main reason for that.

The Black Sword
Posts: 373
Joined: October 13th, 2008, 4:35 pm

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by The Black Sword » December 11th, 2011, 1:27 pm

Well, you can probably guess my view here, given alternate era.
However I'd agree that if you're going to weaken the lieutenant you might as well go for some of the other leaders as well. The elvish marksman is probably the other worst culprit and the flare, drake warrior and deathblade are all above the other leaders too though not exactly on the same level IMO. The saurians and the rogue are possibly ok to leave as 6mp leaders but 5mp would be simpler.

I know the other leaders are base lvl 2s, so you can't change them without affecting other units but you could just use traits(like slow) if you were going to make the change.

soul_steven
Posts: 144
Joined: September 5th, 2009, 5:47 pm

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by soul_steven » December 11th, 2011, 1:35 pm

Yes i would agree all 6 mp leaders are not good however the LT is the worst apple of them all . After all we did give dwarfs quick trait for leaders so why not give the 6 mp leaders a slow trait? In the long run I think changing the LT to 5 mp (or these other units for that matter) in the 1.9 version so we can test it is the smartest thing to do. Its hard to really imagine how it would play out without actually playing it however Imo significant results will happen if we give it a try.

csarmi
Posts: 286
Joined: August 13th, 2007, 1:57 pm

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by csarmi » December 11th, 2011, 1:49 pm

5mp flier << 6mp

The LT has higher range. Especially around the keep where there usually there's a clear path to nearby units.

User avatar
Pentarctagon
Forum Administrator
Posts: 4056
Joined: March 22nd, 2009, 10:50 pm
Location: Earth (occasionally)

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by Pentarctagon » December 11th, 2011, 2:14 pm

Seeing as the 1.9 branch is in feature freeze atm, which is why the entire kalifate faction was removed since they would be unable to make balance changes, this change seems unlikely to make it into 1.9/1.10 if it does end up being accepted.
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code

Mabuse
Posts: 2130
Joined: November 6th, 2007, 1:38 pm

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by Mabuse » December 11th, 2011, 2:20 pm

well, the LT already got nerfed. ;)
that he has 6MP is what gives him a special flavor
in 1.6 the LT was stronger. her already lost damage and HP.


in 1.8 the LT is weak in combat.
he has 40 HP, 8-3 melee, 5-3 ranged - normal wesnoth inf movetype
he can die very quickly if you are not careful.

compared with the elvish captain who has
47 HP, 7-4 melee, 5-3 ranged - good elvish moves and defenses
(thats almost 20% more HP and melee damage, not to mention the cheap movement costs and the superior defenses of elves in wood)


so its clear that you cannot simply give the LT -1mp because that would leave him a weak piece of crap
compared to other leadership-units like the elvish captain

in fact you would need to make the LT a lot stronger if you remove 1 MP from him. he would need to have about 50HP and about 10-3 melee to make up for that, compared to the elvish captain
The best bet is your own, good Taste.

User avatar
Faello
Posts: 441
Joined: June 7th, 2005, 9:01 am
Location: Holy Office

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by Faello » December 11th, 2011, 3:06 pm

Generally speaking, I'd support a change for all leader units (except rogue & saurians) to be 5mvp units. Difference of that 1mvp during the battle often means a lot. It's not the first time that something like that would have been done - some time ago, dwarven leaders mvp was boosted from 4 to 5 points and it was done for the sake of game balance.

I think that we've pretty similar situation here.
Last edited by Faello on December 11th, 2011, 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The yellow jester does not play
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.

Anonymissimus
Inactive Developer
Posts: 2458
Joined: August 15th, 2008, 8:46 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by Anonymissimus » December 11th, 2011, 4:40 pm

I hope Eastern Invasion gets its own custom unit line for the general then. Like it should have been done the first time already that its player character was weakened because of multiplayer balance.
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign

User avatar
Elvish_Hunter
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1395
Joined: September 4th, 2009, 2:39 pm
Location: Lintanir Forest...

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by Elvish_Hunter » December 12th, 2011, 9:44 am

Mabuse wrote:well, the LT already got nerfed. ;)
Exactly: in 1.5.7, as the changelog states.
Version 1.5.7:
* Unit changes and balancing:
* Decreased the range attack of the Drake Flare from 7-4 to 6-4.
* Decreased the range attack of the Drake Flamehart from 9-4 to 8-4.
* Increased the cost of the Goblin Spearman from 8 to 9.
* Decreased the cost of the Sergeant from 20 to 19.
* Decreased the HP of the Sergeant from 36 to 32.
* Decreased the HP of the Lieutenant from 48 to 40.
* Decreased the melee attack of the Lieutenant from 9-3 to 8-3.
* Decreased the HP of the General from 58 to 50.
* Decreased the HP of the Grand Marshal from 68 to 60.
In 0.9.2, another change happened:
Version 0.9.2:
* unit balancing and modifications:
* changed Lieutenant attack from 6-3 to 9-3
Anonymissimus wrote:I hope Eastern Invasion gets its own custom unit line for the general then. Like it should have been done the first time already that its player character was weakened because of multiplayer balance.
True. But weakening again the Sergeant line will possibly disrupt the balance of every mainline and UMC campaign. Grep returned me this:
Spoiler:
And of course, there are more results if I run grep for Sergeant or General. In fact, not only EI will be affected, but every campaign where you play, or can recruit, or must fight a unit that belongs to the Sergeant line will be affected.
If the problem is having 6MP leaders, a possible solution is making it so that they get the slow trait (that gives also +5% HP as compensation), exactly as leaders with 4MP get the quick trait.
Current maintainer of these add-ons:
1.14: The Sojournings of Grog, A Rough Life, The White Troll (co-author), Wesnoth Lua Pack
1.12: Children of Dragons

soul_steven
Posts: 144
Joined: September 5th, 2009, 5:47 pm

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by soul_steven » December 12th, 2011, 1:01 pm

]And of course, there are more results if I run grep for Sergeant or General. In fact, not only EI will be affected, but every campaign where you play, or can recruit, or must fight a unit that belongs to the Sergeant line will be affected.
If the problem is having 6MP leaders, a possible solution is making it so that they get the slow trait (that gives also +5% HP as compensation), exactly as leaders with 4MP get the quick trait.[/quote]

I really like this idea! +5% hp would compensate for the lack of 6 mp however make the overall game much more dynamic. If this is a change that for sure can't happen or get considered for next release i would like to test it in the next dev version if that can happen to see how these 5 mp leaders really play out.

Kolbur
Posts: 122
Joined: April 29th, 2009, 9:33 am

General Leader Balance Suggestion

Post by Kolbur » December 12th, 2011, 1:51 pm

Elvish_Hunter wrote: If the problem is having 6MP leaders, a possible solution is making it so that they get the slow trait (that gives also +5% HP as compensation), exactly as leaders with 4MP get the quick trait.
I support this solution. It works nicely with the dwarves leaders already, only the other way around (quick to give them 5mp).
I don't think that 6mp leaders are a problem generally, just the fact that 6mp combined with very powerful abilities is unbalanced on some units. Every leader should have a distinctive advantage in my opinion and the current particular advantageous abilities are (roughly in order of importance, it's situational of course):
  • 6mp
  • leadership
  • marksman or magic (often amplified by a energy damage type)
  • healing
  • skirmish
  • regeneration
  • high resistances + lots of hp but this is a bit less useful than the upper abilities
6mp is at the top of the list because it is always useful on all maps and in all match ups. Note that I didn't list base damage output because most lvl 2s have better damage output than lvl 1 units already. Instead I will list low damage output as a disadvantage. I also didn't list slow, ambush, submerge, poison and backstab because they are either too situational or gimmicky or are available on the lvl 1 unit version already so they are not distinctive enough. I will also not list minor defense bonuses (+10% on a certain terrain), but consider them for the hp rating.

Leaders also may have disadvantages to counter their advantages. These are:
  • low hp
  • negative resistances
  • low damage output (especially in conjunction with marksman or magic, negating them somewhat)
  • low defense
  • dodgy (meaning negative resistances + low hp but generally good defense, I consider this as 1 disadvantage)
Using this one can sort all leaders into the following groups:

Group 1:
2 distinctive advantages and 1 disadvantage
  • Lieutenant (6mp + leadership, low hp)
  • Elvish Marksman (6mp + marksman, low hp)
  • White Mage (magic + heal, low hp)
  • Rogue (6mp + skirmish, dodgy)
Group 2:
2 distinctive advantages and 2 disadvantages
  • Drake Warrior (6mp + high resistances/hp, low defense + negative resistances)
  • Deathblade (6mp + high resistances, low hp + negative resistances)
  • Drake Flare (leadership + high resistances/hp, low defense + negative resistances)
  • Druid (magic + heal, low hp + low damage)
  • Orcish Slayer (6mp + marksman, dodgy + low damage)
  • Elder Wose (Regeneration + high resistances/hp, low defense + negative resistances)
  • Saurian Oracle (6 mp + magic, extremely low hp)
  • Saurian Soothsayer (6mp + magic + heal, extremely low hp + low damage) I just list the Saurian guys here, they are special cases.
Group 3
1 distinctive advantage and no disadvantage
  • Red Mage (magic)
  • Elvish Captain (leadership)
  • Elvish Sorceress (magic)
  • Dark Sorceror (magic)
  • Ranger (6mp)
  • Javelineer (high resistance [but only vs one damage type])
  • Pikeman (high resistance [but only vs one damage type])
Group 4
1 distinctive advantage and 1 disadvantages
  • Dwarvish Steelclad (high resistances/hp, low defense)
  • Dwarvish Thunderguard (high resistances/hp, low defense)
  • Troll (Regeneration, low defense)
  • Troll Rocklobber (Regeneration, low defense)
  • Revenant (high resistances/hp, negative resistances)
  • Bone Shooter (high resistances/hp, negative resistances)
  • Necrophage (high resistances/hp, low damage)
Group 5
1 distinctive advantage and 2 disadvantages
  • Fire Drake (high resistances/hp, low defense + negative resistances)
  • Drake Arbiter (high resistances/hp, low defense + negative resistances)
  • Drake Trasher (high resistances/hp, low defense + negative resistances)
  • Dwarvish Stalwart (high resistances/hp, low defense + low damage)
  • Shock Trooper (high resistances/hp, low defense + negative resistances)
Group 6
no distinctive advantage and no disadvantage
  • Swordsman
  • Elvish Hero
  • Orcish Warrior
  • Longbowman
  • Orcish Crossbowman
  • Trapper
Note: These groups DO NOT necessarily equal the power level of the leaders (although they somewhat do) but they show the special qualities/ distinctiveness of them. I did try to sort them in each group after their power level though.
Also the following leaders won't come up with the random choice and can be somewhat neglected: Saurians, Shock Trooper, Wose, Necrophage

My idea is this: Ideally Group 1 and Group 6 should be resolved into the other groups. The units in Group 1 have very good advantage combination while their disadvantages don't counter them enough (I admit this can be argued about Rogue and White Mage). Group 6 on the other hand is just boring and contain some of the weakest leaders. This change can be done to some extend with the use of traits. I consider the leaders in Group 2 - Group 5 generally more balanced and/or interesting. It might look a bit unfair that some units have no disadvantage while other have 2 but one has to remember that not all advantages and disadvantages are equal and that there are some other factors that I didn't list play a role in the balance. Also some of the weak leaders in their groups should get slight buffs

So my suggestion is to add traits to these units:
  • slow trait to Lieutenant and Elvish Marksman (no more 6 mp but slightly more hp)
  • quick trait AND strong trait to Trapper and Orcish Crossbowman (I consider them the weakest leaders, they need a goodie)
  • quick trait to Longbowman
  • strong trait to Dwarvish Stalwart
  • maybe either strong, resilient or quick to Pikeman and Javelineer
  • fearless trait to Shock Trooper (ok, this might be too strong in some situations but I like this because it would be something special and fits the fluff, also he is not a random leader so has to be chosen with the Loyalist faction, which is another disadvantage)
  • resilient trait to Saurians, since their hp is laughable for a leader, strong or a combination with slow is another option
I'm not sure what to do with White Mage, Rogue, Swordsman, Elvish Hero and Orcish Warrior. The first 2 are only overpowered in special situations while the last 3 are not weak but very bland. Any ideas?

soul_steven
Posts: 144
Joined: September 5th, 2009, 5:47 pm

Re: Appeal to Weaken the OP LT

Post by soul_steven » December 12th, 2011, 2:04 pm

In short very nice post with lots of great ideas there! I share all the same thoughts you have just couldn't sum them up and present them in the way you did. I think this idea of different traits dependent on unit offers uniqueness and helps with overall balance of the game. So many times you see a attack thwarted just from the LT or marksman in range of the units. We really should try testing some of these ideas out to see how they play out in the scheme of the game!

User avatar
Gambit
Loose Screw
Posts: 3266
Joined: August 13th, 2008, 3:00 pm
Location: Dynamica
Contact:

Re: [mainline] Weaken the OP LT

Post by Gambit » December 12th, 2011, 2:04 pm

Moved to Ideas.

Post Reply