[engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

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bvanevery
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by bvanevery »

thespaceinvader wrote:Speaking as an impartial observer in many of your discussions, you come across as staggeringly demanding, with a monstrous sense of personal entitlement.
I'm going to ask you to please drop this. This is not what the forum is for.
Why are YOUR needs the key here? What about the user who, all unknowing, accidentally hits F5 in the middle of a scenario they're playing, and it kills their game irretrievably?
That's what autosave is for. There's nothing irretrievable about it, at least not in single player play. I suppose in MP play, one wouldn't want a "death key." But I'm not sure there's any modal overlap of context anyways. This can be a SP feature.
Why should they suffer the accidental loss of their game so you can avoid lifting a frigging finger?
Because I am producing content that others play for free. It's not a "friggin' finger," it's quite a lot of developer time. Cache reloading is slow and painful. I actually want it to go away entirely, and do everything interpreted, so that developers can see immediate changes. Having a hotkey to speed up the UI part of the problem is just a stopgap. I would have presumed it a sane stopgap, for anyone who does a lot of development.
And incidentally, shift-F5 is pretty easy, and I have short, stubby fingers.
So, our hands are different. What you find easy, others find nearly impossible. We learn something about ergonomics.
Users who play are FAR more common than users who develop.
That doesn't make them more important.
The basics of the game should support them, even to the detriment of developing content.
We strongly disagree here. My view is, if Wesnoth is too tedious to develop content for, then developers won't develop content. I have a growing inventory of such issues. This one is straightforward to fix.
That being said, this command is a sensible suggestion
It's an obvious suggestion. Granted it may have some corner cases, but I'm surprised at the level of heat and resistance to such an obvious suggestion. "Hey, how about reloading the cache doesn't take as long? Speed up developer time?"
Making it available only in debug mode (which persists once entered even if you close the current scenario)
Not my favorite idea, but acceptable, as I said several posts ago.
or making it a multiple-key command would achieve this.
You know my opinion on this.
I wonder whether Wesnoth('s debug mode) would benefit from some form of keystroke/mouse-macro-recording function like OpenOffice has...
The scenario complexity expands rather quickly. Keystroke macros would have to fail without complaint, as combat conditions will render many keystrokes moot. Still, if it automated unit recruitment on Turn 4 it could be helpful. What I really want is for a saved game to incorporate changes to the base code when I make an edit.
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thespaceinvader
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by thespaceinvader »

Hrm, here's an idea. How about you don't ask me to drop things, and instead, I ask you to drop things. Speaking as a forum moderator and administrator, I have a lot more weight behind my requests.

So. How about you drop the attitude, lose the chip on your shoulder, and learn not to be so aggressive to people who offer you honest and constructive feedback about your ideas?


There. We can both move past the attitude, and discuss the idea sensibly.

The culmination being that it's a sensible idea to have a hotkey command to quit, refresh the cache and reload the scenario, and that it should probably be limited to functioning only when debug mode is enabled.

Would you like to make the feature request, or should I?
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StDrake
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by StDrake »

Did anyone notice there's something like that already existant in campaigns? that pretty little ctrl+o and load up the scenario prestart save..maybe instead of that new hotkey assignment the game could make such saves also prior to mp scenarios?

and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no such thing as SP that is not campaigns - SP scenarios are just a special case of hotseat MP
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bvanevery
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by bvanevery »

StDrake wrote:Did anyone notice there's something like that already existant in campaigns? that pretty little ctrl+o and load up the scenario prestart save..
It doesn't clear the cache. Pardon if I am repeating myself here, but the purpose is to speed development. The cache needs to be reloaded every time a change to *.cfg files is made, or else the changes are not propagated. The Wesnoth savegame format has a section in it that retains the original code configuration when the scenario was started.
maybe instead of that new hotkey assignment the game could make such saves also prior to mp scenarios?
I'm not understanding you here.
and correct me if I'm wrong, but there's no such thing as SP that is not campaigns - SP scenarios are just a special case of hotseat MP
They are different in the sense that only 1 human being is hitting keys, and has local storage for autosaves.
Max wrote:anyone noticed that you can reassign hotkeys?
Not F5 currently. Go look at the prefs. Anyways, defaults should be reasonable.
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bigkahuna
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by bigkahuna »

I agree that a more intuitive and "quick" F5 reload-cache key would be very useful. As someone who's developed a SP campaign, I've also noticed that it is a pain to exit the scenario, go to the main screen, hit F5, and go all the way back. Since F5 is almost always only used for developing (and people who edit .cfg files for fun I suppose...) this is a great idea to streamline content.

However, I have to agree with the mods that a safeguard is needed. Since this whole deal is meant to streamline "development only", it shouldn't be a potential harm to the player. After all, the game is made for the fun and enjoyment of the player, not necessarily the developer. We develop content without this new hotkey, so I'm sure that making a new one only slightly less convenient than we'd wish won't hinder things.

In short, I support this idea, but with a safeguard (whether it be :debug + F5 or Shift + F5).
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bvanevery
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by bvanevery »

bigkahuna wrote:In short, I support this idea, but with a safeguard (whether it be :debug + F5 or Shift + F5).
We are able to agree on :debug + F5 so that is the FR I will file.
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pauxlo
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by pauxlo »

... and additionally add to the request that the hotkey should be configurable, so anyones wishes would be fulfilled.
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bvanevery
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by bvanevery »

pauxlo wrote:... and additionally add to the request that the hotkey should be configurable, so anyones wishes would be fulfilled.
But if it's guarded by :debug, why does anyone want it to be something other than F5?

Note that the current F5 key is not configurable. I think I will file that as a low priority bug, not a FR.
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StDrake
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by StDrake »

how about file it as an FR but as a debug command instead of keypress. There'd be no fuss about reconfiguring keys and I don't see any way how a cat could accidentally type "recache" or something like that, while pressing a single key in the wrong moment can happen and be annoying even with keeping watch of your debug mode state.
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by Anonymissimus »

How many players know about debug mode before they read about it in the forums ? Should way be enough to eliminate unwanted scenario resets.
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by bvanevery »

StDrake wrote:how about file it as an FR but as a debug command instead of keypress. There'd be no fuss about reconfiguring keys and I don't see any way how a cat could accidentally type "recache" or something like that, while pressing a single key in the wrong moment can happen and be annoying even with keeping watch of your debug mode state.
I can't worry about developers hitting wrong keys when the key in question is at the top of the keyboard and there are no important keys anywhere near it. I would also like to point out that many key combos that people perceive as guards, simply don't work. I've hit CTRL-RANDOMKEY or SHIFT-RANDOMKEY plenty of times due to a fumbling hand, occasionally with disastrous results. If you have to use A S D Z X C frequently, you're going to hit CTRL and SHIFT by accident sooner or later.

The point of the FR is to have a hotkey that's as fast as possible because reloading the cache and restarting the scenario is such a frequent operation for developers. I am not kidding when I say I do this 100 times a day. It makes for long days. I will request a debug command, a default hotkey mapping for it, and the ability to remap the hotkey, including turning it off. The default should be that the hotkey is available and standard (F5) so that developers know about it and talk about it.
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by monochromatic »

I just want to say that the default reload cache button on Mac is not F5, but Ctrl-F5. Because F5 is for something entirely different on Mac. Do keep that in mind.

I'd vote for :debug Shift-F5.
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by bvanevery »

elvish_sovereign wrote:I just want to say that the default reload cache button on Mac is not F5, but Ctrl-F5. Because F5 is for something entirely different on Mac. Do keep that in mind.
If you were to choose one button for this function on a Mac, what would it be? No CTRL or SHIFT.
I'd vote for :debug Shift-F5.
I guess you can vote. I just feel you're ignoring all the ergonomic comments I've made about some people's physical inability to type SHIFT-F5 with one hand.
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by em3 »

elvish_sovereign wrote:I just want to say that the default reload cache button on Mac is not F5, but Ctrl-F5. Because F5 is for something entirely different on Mac. Do keep that in mind.
So... if Ctrl+F5 is already used to reload cache on Mac, let it be also used for this feature request... on Macs.

I believe that simple F5 while in debug mode on all other machines would be sufficient safeguard against accidental cache reloads. :hmm:
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Re: [engine] F5 reload scenario after clearing cache

Post by monochromatic »

bvanevery wrote:
elvish_sovereign wrote:I just want to say that the default reload cache button on Mac is not F5, but Ctrl-F5. Because F5 is for something entirely different on Mac. Do keep that in mind.
If you were to choose one button for this function on a Mac, what would it be? No CTRL or SHIFT.
I'd vote for :debug Shift-F5.
I guess you can vote. I just feel you're ignoring all the ergonomic comments I've made about some people's physical inability to type SHIFT-F5 with one hand.
Read it again.
elvish_sovereign wrote:I just want to say that the default reload cache button on Mac is not F5, but Ctrl-F5. Because F5 is for something entirely different on Mac. Do keep that in mind.
And no, I did read all the comments in this thread before posting. In fact I was debating whether to post this or not, not wanting to spark anymore possible fights.
em3 wrote:
elvish_sovereign wrote:I just want to say that the default reload cache button on Mac is not F5, but Ctrl-F5. Because F5 is for something entirely different on Mac. Do keep that in mind.
So... if Ctrl+F5 is already used to reload cache on Mac, let it be also used for this feature request... on Macs.

I believe that simple F5 while in debug mode on all other machines would be sufficient safeguard against accidental cache reloads. :hmm:
Actually I'm fine with any shortcut. I just don't like the fact that it will be inconsistent on this OS compared to the others. Anything (one-handed or two-handed) is fine in my book as long as it is the same between all OS's. That makes the most sense to me.
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