Separation of Movement & Line of Sight

[chino2468]

Hey, how are you?

First of all, I'm suggesting the following idea in an entirely positive way: the game's great and what I'm proposing (to separate the concepts of movement and line of sight) is in no way a criticism to the game, which I love =]
Second, I tried looking for this idea in the forums, but didn't find it, so I apologize in advance for any repetitions.


So I'll go straight to the point: right now, every unit can see as far as it is able to move. It's probably in the spirit of the game's simplicity that this was thought, but I think that with a little bit of extra work (cos I've no idea how this is done =D) a greater game balance could be achieved. I don't like dwarves and several slow units being at the same time "short-sighted", while fast units have a great lines of vision. I don't see why, for example, a vampire bat, a blind creature, can see twice as far as an elvish archer, trained to be accurate and observing.

Leaving the RPG/realism issues aside, it would be really great if we had:

1) Units with high movement rates, but with low visibility: they would still serve as scouts, but their usefulness would be determined by their visibility AS WELL as their speed. That would make gryphons (for example) a much better scouting unit that bats, which I see as town-scavengers and right now, they're too "strong" with the ability to reveal half map in a turn or two.

2) Units with low movement rates, but with high visibility: they would serve as defenders; aren't you tired of being rushed by throngs of units when you have some heavy infantrymen, for example? They have 5 hexes of "sight", and many units with 6 movement points can ambush them. It would be interesting to have slow units with, for example, 8 hexes worth of sight, or whatever's deemed appropiate.

3) This is more of a stretch, but I noticed some games (such as the Civ games) where if you stand on a mountain, you get +1 visibility, and if you stand on flat terrain and there's a mountain nearby, it cuts off your visibility behind it.

That's pretty much it, I hope it helps the game =]

[Speedbrain]

http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=30342
It has actually been discussed before and is being looked at in the Experimental Corner as linked above.

[Hulavuta]

Plus the Default factions are very well balanced. This could tip it.

[Captain_Wrathbow]

http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=30342
It has actually been discussed before and is being looked at in the Experimental Corner as linked above.

Plus the Default factions are very well balanced. This could tip it.

True, and true, but on the on the bright side, this is a good example of the right way to suggest an idea. (Something we don't see often enough...)
I'm not saying I support the idea itself, but it is well-presented.

[monochromatic]

If that is the case, then why buy the more expensive fast units when they don't have much sight? Might as well buy slower moving troops that hit harder.

[chino2468]

Hmm thanks for the prompt replies, I'll check on the other thread =]

[joshudson]

The only particular thing about this I found is it is something of an annoyance to be unable to look over deep water, lava, or chasm to see the terrain on the other side.

[chino2468]

That's one of the things that really started this. I didn't mention it at first, but it's a good point too.

[deoxy]

I have a suggestion for this:

Make a "vision cost" tag for terrain for each unit. That is, in the movetype, you define how much movement it costs to move over a given terrain, and, currently, that's also how much it costs to see over that terrain. There could be a "vision only" version of those tags that change how much it costs to see over terrain in the same way as movement costs currently work. If this new tag is not used, the "vision" costs is the same as the movement cost.

This would give great flexibility (example: units that have high MP but have at least a cost of 2 for every terrain - there's one like that in Extended Era) without bothering the balance of Default era (they would have all the same tags).

So, you could easily make deep ocean be impassable for most foot units and still let them "see" over it normally. You could also make a unit that can walk through forest fairly easily but can't see through it very well (most foot units, really).

This could even make "scout" units that see farther than they can move over all terrains (though it would require it to be a "high mp" unit that can't move very far, which is a bit annoying).

As best I can tell, this would be a simple add that doesn't mess up anything that already exists and provides nearly all the desired functionality.

[Gambit]

Plus the Default factions are very well balanced. This could tip it.

No. No. No. No. No. No.
I am fed up with the fact that every time someone suggests an engine improvement, someone chimes in with "0H BUT DAT WILL BREAKZ TEH MEYNLIEN". This is why we can't have nice things people! There is a difference between making something possible within the engine, and actually implementing it in default and other existing content.

Hopefully we can convince the original poster to not want it for default, and only to exist as a possibility.

[Hulavuta]

but I think that with a little bit of extra work (cos I've no idea how this is done =D) a greater game balance could be achieved.

From this I assumed he intended to change the Default factions...

[Gambit]

Yeah you're right.

@chino: Default is already balanced perfectly. But if this were added as a feature to the game engine, we could make a copy of default that implemented it.

[Dixie]

Well, if this was implanted, the only change possibly worth doing to default would be to not have water/chasms block vision. Although it would probably tip balance, but... It's true that it's bothersome, and hardly realistic (Yeah, I know, WINR).

[chino2468]

Hmm I don't think there's such thing as "perfect balance"... I mean, I played the game for many years now, and it evolved, and at some point, the balance is tipped off just a bit to one side, and then to the other.

I think that if an improvement (or if you want, a change) is proposed, it must be analized and everything, and a new balance will be achieved. We can have a nice aproximation, but perfect balance is a myth =]

[Hulavuta]

Perfect balance is impossible, because perfection is impossible, but they are close enough that one faction never has an advantage over another. The only way the balance could be tipped is if one player's skill highly surpasses the other ones. But adding this line of site would need re-balance to everything.