Add "Join Date" to players in the lobby
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Add "Join Date" to players in the lobby
Introduction
The developers are against ranking players because they are afraid to encourage cheating, and they think it detracts from fun. Optional ranking is fun for many players, but there is a middle ground between ranking players and not recording games at all. We can use same statistics we use in the forum: join date and maybe games played. Obviously, these stats would only appear for registered members, and you can make this entirely optional. If someone didn't want to display their join date, they don't have to. If you give players an icon or a star for playing games, they feel proud, happy, and have something to work for. This positive reinforcement will make Wesnoth more addicting and fun.
Stats also let players know who the new players are, so veterans are less frustrated, upset, or annoyed by new players. If vets don't want to play with a newbie they have tool to avoid them without being rude or mean. It will discourage people from being rude to newbies, because they will know before the game that a player is brand new, and they will be able to make an informed choice to play with the newbie to find another game. This gives your users choice and freedom.
The Problem:
Wesnoth's forum and IRC community is wonderful, but the lobby can be a brutal place where the newbies are bashed every day. Single player is addicting because it has persistence. Unfortunately, single player is extremely easy. When players are asking for some persistence in multiplayer, they want their games to mean something; they want their time invested into Wesnoth to be recognized. They want the community to know they have contributed their time to it day after day. By forcing the newbies to play vets with no way to tell the difference, we are creating a hostile atmosphere. Players frequently complain about "noob partners", and handles such as "IHateNoobs" are common place. It's not that the guy hates more wesnoth players, it's that he doesn't want them to play in his game, and wishes he had some way to avoid them.
Solution Conclusion
If we show join date inside the game host screen, that would be the minimum to resolve the hostile in-game atmosphere. Games played can be optional, but would add an element of persistence and achievement to multi-player for those who want it, that the forum and single player both already have. If we want Wesnoth to be more open, friendly and inviting to new players, we need to give new players a safe, friendly environment in which to learn the game with out being bashed by veterans who don't want to play with them.
If the developers don't build the idea into the lobby, this idea can be done with an egg drop IRC bot and the lobby IRC echo. We just need someone with the skills and interest to make it happen. If you're willing to work on this idea, drop me a message and I'll give you the code I have, and my ideas for how to make this work.
*NOTE: I edited this post based on comments from users to make the idea more clear.
The developers are against ranking players because they are afraid to encourage cheating, and they think it detracts from fun. Optional ranking is fun for many players, but there is a middle ground between ranking players and not recording games at all. We can use same statistics we use in the forum: join date and maybe games played. Obviously, these stats would only appear for registered members, and you can make this entirely optional. If someone didn't want to display their join date, they don't have to. If you give players an icon or a star for playing games, they feel proud, happy, and have something to work for. This positive reinforcement will make Wesnoth more addicting and fun.
Stats also let players know who the new players are, so veterans are less frustrated, upset, or annoyed by new players. If vets don't want to play with a newbie they have tool to avoid them without being rude or mean. It will discourage people from being rude to newbies, because they will know before the game that a player is brand new, and they will be able to make an informed choice to play with the newbie to find another game. This gives your users choice and freedom.
The Problem:
Wesnoth's forum and IRC community is wonderful, but the lobby can be a brutal place where the newbies are bashed every day. Single player is addicting because it has persistence. Unfortunately, single player is extremely easy. When players are asking for some persistence in multiplayer, they want their games to mean something; they want their time invested into Wesnoth to be recognized. They want the community to know they have contributed their time to it day after day. By forcing the newbies to play vets with no way to tell the difference, we are creating a hostile atmosphere. Players frequently complain about "noob partners", and handles such as "IHateNoobs" are common place. It's not that the guy hates more wesnoth players, it's that he doesn't want them to play in his game, and wishes he had some way to avoid them.
Solution Conclusion
If we show join date inside the game host screen, that would be the minimum to resolve the hostile in-game atmosphere. Games played can be optional, but would add an element of persistence and achievement to multi-player for those who want it, that the forum and single player both already have. If we want Wesnoth to be more open, friendly and inviting to new players, we need to give new players a safe, friendly environment in which to learn the game with out being bashed by veterans who don't want to play with them.
If the developers don't build the idea into the lobby, this idea can be done with an egg drop IRC bot and the lobby IRC echo. We just need someone with the skills and interest to make it happen. If you're willing to work on this idea, drop me a message and I'll give you the code I have, and my ideas for how to make this work.
*NOTE: I edited this post based on comments from users to make the idea more clear.
Last edited by chains on January 6th, 2010, 9:24 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Thrawn
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Re: Give players reputation in the game lobby
Wouldn't this require everyone to register on the forums?
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott
this goes for they're/their/there as well
this goes for they're/their/there as well
Re: Give players reputation in the game lobby
I wouldn't call the ladders popularity overwhelming. I for one choose not to play it (though nothing to do with cheating). I would be annoyed if a ranking system (and forum registration) were required.
As it is you seem to make many assumptions that I do not believe:
-Newbies playing the game somehow contributes to it. I would argue that experienced players playing the game doesn't contribute much to the game except give replays for balancing. I don't see what contribution you're talking about newbies making.
-Newbies want their games to mean something: I personally don't want my games to mean anything. That's the reason it's a game. For people who do want some sort of ranking they can join the ladder and that is fine. The rest of us can play as we want.
-Forcing newbies to play vets creates a hostile atmosphere. First of all we don't force newbies to play vets in any way. Now there is little to tell a newbie if he is playing a vet however if you are a newbie joining a game against a player you are not familiar with then you should probably expect to lose. If you can't handle losing then you shouldn't be playing. Also, playing against vets is one of the best ways for a newbie inclined to learn to do so.
-People need some kind of 'fluff' positive reinforcement to want to keep playing. If this is the case then I'm fine with these people leaving. People who aren't willing to play just because it's fun and good for the mind are people the community can do without (to be fair, the game could do without the majority of the community and that wouldn't be a good thing so that's not much of an argument). Pretty much any veteran went through a period or so where they lost most of the times and never had any kind of fluff reinforcement and yet they're still around.
-Newbies want credit for their work. It's a game. You shouldn't be playing if you aren't having fun or trying to improve. I've been playing a long time and I think that it's a bit ridicules to claim credit for doing any kind of work for the game (except for the content I've made).
-That people who put down newbies will stop just because they know that their opponent is new. People inclined to bully aren't going to stop just because their target is weak. That's almost contradictory to terms.
-That players shouldn't be subject to correction/confrontation: not that I'm supporting bashing newbies which is a pointless activity. However, they aren't going to learn nearly as quickly if people aren't allowed to give advice. As a matter of politeness a would-be-mentor should ask if his opponent wants advice before he gives it. I have had a number of pleasant experiences where I have asked someone if they wanted advice and found a willing listener and witnessed significant improvement because of my advice. You could allow them to just learn at their own rate but it seems pointless when you can be helping the ones who listen achieve the next level faster.
I will also say that even at its worst, Wesnoth is much more friendly than many communities I have seen. In my experience rankings systems make communities less friendly not more (the exception being go/chess communities but Wesnoth does not have a community of this nature).
As it is you seem to make many assumptions that I do not believe:
-Newbies playing the game somehow contributes to it. I would argue that experienced players playing the game doesn't contribute much to the game except give replays for balancing. I don't see what contribution you're talking about newbies making.
-Newbies want their games to mean something: I personally don't want my games to mean anything. That's the reason it's a game. For people who do want some sort of ranking they can join the ladder and that is fine. The rest of us can play as we want.
-Forcing newbies to play vets creates a hostile atmosphere. First of all we don't force newbies to play vets in any way. Now there is little to tell a newbie if he is playing a vet however if you are a newbie joining a game against a player you are not familiar with then you should probably expect to lose. If you can't handle losing then you shouldn't be playing. Also, playing against vets is one of the best ways for a newbie inclined to learn to do so.
-People need some kind of 'fluff' positive reinforcement to want to keep playing. If this is the case then I'm fine with these people leaving. People who aren't willing to play just because it's fun and good for the mind are people the community can do without (to be fair, the game could do without the majority of the community and that wouldn't be a good thing so that's not much of an argument). Pretty much any veteran went through a period or so where they lost most of the times and never had any kind of fluff reinforcement and yet they're still around.
-Newbies want credit for their work. It's a game. You shouldn't be playing if you aren't having fun or trying to improve. I've been playing a long time and I think that it's a bit ridicules to claim credit for doing any kind of work for the game (except for the content I've made).
-That people who put down newbies will stop just because they know that their opponent is new. People inclined to bully aren't going to stop just because their target is weak. That's almost contradictory to terms.
-That players shouldn't be subject to correction/confrontation: not that I'm supporting bashing newbies which is a pointless activity. However, they aren't going to learn nearly as quickly if people aren't allowed to give advice. As a matter of politeness a would-be-mentor should ask if his opponent wants advice before he gives it. I have had a number of pleasant experiences where I have asked someone if they wanted advice and found a willing listener and witnessed significant improvement because of my advice. You could allow them to just learn at their own rate but it seems pointless when you can be helping the ones who listen achieve the next level faster.
I will also say that even at its worst, Wesnoth is much more friendly than many communities I have seen. In my experience rankings systems make communities less friendly not more (the exception being go/chess communities but Wesnoth does not have a community of this nature).
"There are two kinds of old men in the world. The kind who didn't go to war and who say that they should have lived fast died young and left a handsome corpse and the old men who did go to war and who say that there is no such thing as a handsome corpse."
Re: Give players reputation in the game lobby
How would tracking games played work? Would it track only games played to completion, or games the player was a starting player in, or games the player played an active role in (took over from observing mid-game)? Would it track all games, no matter what map, era, etc.? What about games with only one human player? One side with human-controlled players?
If it tracks all games, it's not going to do much in the way of filtering, because it'll count a game against Dauntless or Wintermute the same as a Colosseum, or an Orocia game. If you start adding requirements for games, you're creating an division of what is considered "legitimate" Wesnoth and what isn't.
I understand where you're going with this, but I think that a count of games played is meaningless data. It doesn't really provide any information about player skill or experience, because the player could have played many games against the AI (people do this online, I do not know why. I suspect they don't know how local game works), or play exclusively scenarios unlike standard Wesnoth, or exclusively standard Wesnoth unlike the scenario under consideration, etc., etc., etc..
If it tracks all games, it's not going to do much in the way of filtering, because it'll count a game against Dauntless or Wintermute the same as a Colosseum, or an Orocia game. If you start adding requirements for games, you're creating an division of what is considered "legitimate" Wesnoth and what isn't.
I understand where you're going with this, but I think that a count of games played is meaningless data. It doesn't really provide any information about player skill or experience, because the player could have played many games against the AI (people do this online, I do not know why. I suspect they don't know how local game works), or play exclusively scenarios unlike standard Wesnoth, or exclusively standard Wesnoth unlike the scenario under consideration, etc., etc., etc..
Re: Give players reputation in the game lobby
I'm pretty sure this is an FPI, and should be treated accordingly.
Project Battlescar: An rpg engine of my own design.
http://battlescar.wikispaces.com/
http://battlescar.wikispaces.com/
Re: Give players reputation in the game lobby
I would also be annoyed if ranking were required. I did not post an idea about ranking systems or requiring ranking systems. I will trim down my post more so as to not confuse people with information that isn't necessary. Thanks for your feedback Velensk.I wouldn't call the ladders popularity overwhelming. I for one choose not to play it (though nothing to do with cheating). I would be annoyed if a ranking system (and forum registration) were required.
This is entirely up to the developers. I'm happy with any stats, so I hope the developers don't get bogged down with which games to log. If it were me, I'd keep it simple and count each time a person starts in a game. If someone has played 100 games of Orcia and zero isar's games that's better than what we have now. Ideally, it would be nice if the games played recorded which maps people play as part of their profile, but that would increase code complexity and make it less likely to be implemented. I'd LOVE to know how many games of Isar's cross I've played. I'd also love to know what my win% with each faction is. I'd also pay love to know what the total win% for all factions across all players is.How would tracking games played work?
I'd be happy with just "Date Joined:" If we get a field that says "Games Joined: XX" that counts how many games a player was in , that would would be awesome. If the player has an icon that changes based on number of games played, thats neat too.
Last edited by chains on January 6th, 2010, 9:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Give players reputation in the game lobby
I'm sorry what? Maybe you're thinking of some other game.chains wrote:resolve the hostile in-game atmosphere.
The only people who get bashed are those who swear every other word, and those who never finish any of their matches. Oh and Noy (which I still don't understand), but he's got a hammer for that.
2/3 people on that list deserve their bashing. And I wouldn't really call it a bashing. People's attitude towards them hardly even qualifies as "shunning". Apology (or a name change in severe cases) = second chance. People've a right to choose who they play with.
Last edited by Gambit on January 6th, 2010, 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Give players reputation in the game lobby
On second thought, I don't see the FPI I thought I saw... but that means this thread was poorly titled.
Project Battlescar: An rpg engine of my own design.
http://battlescar.wikispaces.com/
http://battlescar.wikispaces.com/
Re: Give players reputation in the game lobby
Also chains, if you post any more idea proposals, this sort of line is an immediate turn off.wtf is this that you wrote:If we really want Wesnoth to have the open, friendly, and inviting community we pretend it has
Re: Give players reputation in the game lobby
Thanks for the feedback Gambit, I've edited my idea based on your input.Also chains, if you post any more idea proposals, this sort of line is an immediate turn off.
@Zachron
I struggled for a title for the thread for about half an hour, I'll see If I can come up with a better title. This is my first attempt at posting in idea. Constructive feedback is very helpful.
Re: Add "Join Date" to players in the lobby
You can get the registration and the last join date with: /info <registered nickname>chains wrote:We can use same statistics we use in the forum: join date and maybe games played.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
Re: Add "Join Date" to players in the lobby
Wow thats awesome! What's the easiest way to run that each time someone joins my game? Is there a way short of recompiling my Wesnoth client?