Gaining levels should affect accuracy and defense

[Zamael]

Because you'd think a Great Mage could fling those fireballs at least a bit more accurately than a puny apprentice. Or that an elvish outrider could avoid attacks somewhat better than a scout that just got his first horse.

It doesn't even need to be all that much. Just a little bit. I've read a bit of how you're against realism, at least if it affects gameplay negatively, but even so...

(And speaking of accuracy, I am certain those numbers show them bigger than it really is. I mean, if it shows 50%, barely 20% or something will actually hit. I have tested this.)

[Gambit]

We're not against realism. However the entire thing is full of elves and orcs and trolls and dragons.
It's just that realism < balance and gameplay

Furthermore you can't increase a unit's accuracy. It is not a stat in the game. It can only be done artificially using weapon specials. And when you do this to every single unit as you seem to want then what is the point of defense?

Finally 50% defense does not mean that 50% of the attacks will hit every single time. It simply means that a single attack has 50% odds of hitting.


Also I think the devs decided long ago, in regards to "accuracy" that nothing (in mainline) can go over 80% chance to hit. And this 80% only occurs in water.

And maybe it isn't the Mage who is inaccurate. Maybe it's the magic fireball spell that lacks realistic precision.
Perhaps this is why higher level mages gain more strikes and more powerful fireballs?

[Zamael]

We're not against realism. However the entire thing is full of elves and orcs and trolls and dragons.
It's just that realism < balance and gameplay

That's a fair point. But you can't forget realism altogether either, as I'm sure you'll understand. There's "letting realism go in favour of balance and gameplay", but then there's also "just plain silly".

Furthermore you can't increase a unit's accuracy. It is not a stat in the game. It can only be done artificially using weapon specials.

But you could add accuracy as a stat in game? If you could, it'd actually make things more simple in the long run, making a couple abilities ("marksman", and the high accuracy of magical attacks - although magic and sharpshooters would obviously still remain very accurate) redundant and pointless. Oh and, elves being able to hit with their bows better than a clumsy heavy infantryman and his mace always made sense to me, and could this way be made possible.

It was always rather silly that only terrain could effect this.

And when you do this to every single unit as you seem to want then what is the point of defense?

The things would only stay the exact same when the attacking and the defending unit are of the same level. But if a level 3 unit attacks a level 1, I'm sure it could hit better, being more experienced and stuff.

Besides, see above: bring in accuracy stat and tweak stuff to a whole new level.

Finally 50% defense does not mean that 50% of the attacks will hit every single time. It simply means that a single attack has 50% odds of hitting.

Isn't that the same thing?

Also I think the devs decided long ago, in regards to "accuracy" that nothing (in mainline) can go over 80% chance to hit. And this 80% only occurs in water.

This also makes sense. But you could tweak the chance to hit of water, as well as maybe even reduce the accuracy of some low-level units a bit.

And maybe it isn't the Mage who is inaccurate. Maybe it's the magic fireball spell that lacks realistic precision.
Perhaps this is why higher level mages gain more strikes and more powerful fireballs?

Fireballs ain't accurate, maybe, but an experienced mage should be able to direct it much better.

[StDrake]

the increased accuracy is already done by means of increased power - do note that they already get a strenght boost and quite a big one

of course it can already be done in WML to increase (not just set a certain) the chance to hit, but somehow not many people want to do that and for a good reason

oh and you can get 90% chance to hit in mainline, try getting that heavy infantry into water 10% def rate does happen

as for the numbers showing higher than practical results..say hello to the curse of all wesnoth players your enemy is not the owner of the units sent against you, it's the random number generator

[Soliton]

Because you'd think a Great Mage could fling those fireballs at least a bit more accurately than a puny apprentice.

Magic attacks inherently hit with a 70% chance, there is no aiming or skill involved. Also some advancements gain defense upgrades but in general that's simply not feasible given the granularity of the stats.

(And speaking of accuracy, I am certain those numbers show them bigger than it really is. I mean, if it shows 50%, barely 20% or something will actually hit. I have tested this.)

We eagerly await your testing results. I hope you're familiar with the law of large numbers.

[Aethaeryn]

(And speaking of accuracy, I am certain those numbers show them bigger than it really is. I mean, if it shows 50%, barely 20% or something will actually hit. I have tested this.)

We eagerly await your testing results. I hope you're familiar with the law of large numbers.

No, he's actually right around the correct numbers for a two-strike unit. If you have a 50% chance to hit, a unit with one strikes has a 50% chance to land all of its strikes, but suddenly one with 2 strikes only has a 25% chance to land all his strikes, and a one with 3 strikes only has a 12.5% chance to land all his strikes. This mysterious phenomenon must be explained.

(Just curious, did you test out the 50% actually only being a 20% chance to land all strikes with a unit who had two strikes, such as an orcish grunt?)

Finally 50% defense does not mean that 50% of the attacks will hit every single time. It simply means that a single attack has 50% odds of hitting.

Isn't that the same thing?

No. If the RNG calculates hits by each individual strikes (it does) a 50% chance to land 1 strike would be 50%, all of a two-strike unit's hits 25% (.5*.5), all of a three-strike unit's hits 12.5% (.5*.5*.5) all of a four strike unit's hits 6.25% (.5*.5*.5*.5)... So yes, upgrading from three-strikes to four-strikes (assuming non-magical) would halve their odds of hitting all strikes in this case!

As for magical (easy to calculate since it's always a 70% chance to hit) a mage will only land all three strikes 34.3% (or .7*.7*.7) of the time. The red mage, having four strikes, will only have a 24% (.7*.7*.7) chance to land all four of his strikes.

Does that mean that units with many strikes are bad? No, their chance to miss all of their strikes is similarly decreased, which makes them more reliable than orcish grunts (2 strikes) or dwarvish thunderers (1 strikes). Thus, a unit with 3 to 5 strikes is more likely to hit at least a few times. A unit with 1 or 2 strikes is more likely to do its maximum amount of damage, but is also more likely to do no damage at all!

Just realize though, please, that statistics don't work like you were assuming and use the Damage Calculations button before a strike if you really want to know your odds.

[chaoticwanderer]

Also I think the devs decided long ago, in regards to "accuracy" that nothing (in mainline) can go over 80% chance to hit. And this 80% only occurs in water.

Doesn't the heavy infantry have 10% defense in water?

[Aethaeryn]

Also I think the devs decided long ago, in regards to "accuracy" that nothing (in mainline) can go over 80% chance to hit. And this 80% only occurs in water.

Doesn't the heavy infantry have 10% defense in water?

And swamp.

[Gambit]

Okay lets say a wesnoth unit is attacking a unit with 50% defense. The attacker has a 6-4 bow attack.
Go flip a coin 4 times. Then repeat this 100 times.

I'm sure you'll see my point. Though it is 50/50 heads(hit) and tails(miss). Sometimes you'll have no hits. Sometimes you'll have all 4. After 100 trials you'll find the majority is two hits. But not all of them.


Besides, defense is accuracy. The better terrain you're on, the less accuracte your enemy is.

[StDrake]

Doesn't the heavy infantry have 10% defense in water?

didn't i post that before? oh look, i did.

{VARIABLE feel_ignored yes}

[Gambit]

Yeah I had it bass ackwards. It's was the defense that has a limit not the chance to hit -_-

[Zarel]

Also I think the devs decided long ago, in regards to "accuracy" that nothing (in mainline) can go over 80% chance to hit. And this 80% only occurs in water.

As others have mentioned, HI gets 10% evasion in water. I believe Wose does, too.

The decision you're thinking of may be the decision that nothing can go over 80% evasion, and except in extremely limited circumstances (such as the invisible scenario in LoW) should not go above 70% - statistical anomalies become far too exaggerated beyond those numbers.

There's also the general rule that nothing should get beyond 90% chance to hit anywhere, and nothing should get anything above 70% guaranteed, but afaik those are unwritten, and routinely violated by some of the lesser-known MP eras.

Okay lets say a wesnoth unit is attacking a unit with 50% defense. The attacker has a 6-4 bow attack.
Go flip a coin 4 times. Then repeat this 100 times.

I'm sure you'll see my point. Though it is 50/50 heads(hit) and tails(miss). Sometimes you'll have no hits. Sometimes you'll have all 4. After 100 trials you'll find the majority is two hits. But not all of them.

Actually, you'll find that only around 37.5% of them are two hits.

I believe the word you're looking for is "plurality".

[A Guy]

As others have mentioned, HI gets 10% evasion in water. I believe Wose does, too.

Woses get 20% in water, like they do on land.

[Noy]

Because you'd think a Great Mage could fling those fireballs at least a bit more accurately than a puny apprentice. Or that an elvish outrider could avoid attacks somewhat better than a scout that just got his first horse.

It doesn't even need to be all that much. Just a little bit. I've read a bit of how you're against realism, at least if it affects gameplay negatively, but even so...

(And speaking of accuracy, I am certain those numbers show them bigger than it really is. I mean, if it shows 50%, barely 20% or something will actually hit. I have tested this.)

Please read the FPI, we aren't going to change basic aspects of gameplay this far into development. Others here have commented why it is realistic, so all I need to do is to lock.