Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

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Thrawn
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by Thrawn »

Honestly, I think that the only thing that can be said is that if you don't like it, you can always make an era that plays the way you like. If enough other players like your way better, you'll get the satisfaction of having done something about the percieved problem, rather than trying to change something that won't be changed.

I don't think that this topic is going anywhere useful, as D_N_T clearly has a defined opinion, and so do the devs arguing against him. Neither of y'all will budge, and making the change as UMC seems to be the way to go.
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melinath
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by melinath »

Regardless of whether one prefers chess or wesnoth, the point is that they are very different games. Chess is strategy without randomness; Wesnoth is strategy with randomness. It's an essential part of what makes (mainline) Wesnoth the game it is.

D_N_T: if you ever, ever want to convince the devs of this - well, it's probably not going to happen, but if you want to try, you should make a UMC testing it out, as Thrawn said.

donkey_noob_trash1
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by donkey_noob_trash1 »

Soliton wrote:
donkey_noob_trash1 wrote: People who prefer randomness over strategy are, by and large, poor players.
People who prefer wesnoth over chess are, by and large, poor players.
I can't speak for every strategy game player out there, but in general the more aspects of a game that I can control, the better. Why? More things to consider, more things to customize. More feeling of ownership over your situation.

Wesnoth is an excellent strategy game, for sure. I would like to have more control over the trait aspect, though, or at least not have to be stuck with the majority of my forces with quick/ intelligent, while my opponent's RANGED UNITS have more HP than my fighters! Ideally, I would be able to control the traits, but a happy compromise would be something like xiv said- toning down on the devastating negative effects of the Q/I combo.

And as an aside, plenty of other non-chess strategy game titles have been able to avoid introducing elements into their games that randomly favor one player over another:

Command & Conquer titles, Warcraft titles, Hearts of Iron, Close Combat, Ascendancy...
to name just a few of the ones I like to play.
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Crunchy
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by Crunchy »

And as an aside, plenty of other non-chess strategy game titles have been able to avoid introducing elements into their games that randomly favor one player over another:
You're comparing apples to oranges. Of those games I've only played c&c(s) and warcraft(s) but those are real time strategy games. You do things completely different in real time strategy games then in turn based strategy games. Your units are more important on an individual basis in Wesnoth, but you also have more time to consider how to use them and to level them etc. Furthermore, your units ALWAYS hit in those real time strategy games. So if you wanted Wesnoth to remove random favor to a certain player then you need to remake the whole battle system. You would have to remove the hit/miss element and replace it with a damage modifier depending on the type of terrain you are on. What you get at this point is a massive change to the core gameplay of wesnoth. Let's face it: Wesnoth does have luck involved but it also requires skill. Most people are okay with the current strategy.

If you're saying that Wesnoth should be more like Warcraft then all I have to say is :evil:

I do like the original idea but still think that there should be a cost associated with choosing your units stats.

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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by Thrawn »

Crunchy wrote:
If you're saying that Wesnoth should be more like Warcraft then all I have to say is :evil:

I do like the original idea but still think that there should be a cost associated with choosing your units stats.
If that's the case, I'd say that WINW (wesnoth is not warcraft)

Also, I'd say that if you like that modification of his idea, help him make it, and then make the change. Wesnoth is all about you guys being able to change things you don't like yourself, and then just promoting it to get other people's interest.
...please remember that "IT'S" ALWAYS MEANS "IT IS" and "ITS" IS WHAT YOU USE TO INDICATE POSSESSION BY "IT".--scott

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donkey_noob_trash1
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by donkey_noob_trash1 »

Thrawn wrote:
Crunchy wrote:
If you're saying that Wesnoth should be more like Warcraft then all I have to say is :evil:

I do like the original idea but still think that there should be a cost associated with choosing your units stats.
If that's the case, I'd say that WINW (wesnoth is not warcraft)

Also, I'd say that if you like that modification of his idea, help him make it, and then make the change. Wesnoth is all about you guys being able to change things you don't like yourself, and then just promoting it to get other people's interest.
I would be hugely grateful to anyone who would offer a helping hand. But honestly, my OP was just to open up the discussion about traits and if the trait idea could be better developed. I have heard many players comment on their annoyance of certain aspects of it.

It seems like the arguments against the idea I've proposed are essentially: randomness is good in and of itself.

I guess that's just a taste thing, and if that's how the powers that be ordain it, the rest of us just have to deal with it.
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Molean
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by Molean »

JW wrote:
Molean wrote:What if you could pick one of the traits for 25% more in cost or 4 more, which ever is greater, just a thought (for what ever campaign you make or what ever)
Too expensive.

I would say pick traits for 1-3g depending on the base unit cost. Even 3 is a little unreasonable IMO.
Not necessarily true. This is especially the cause in campaigns when it can be about those units you keep on bringing foreward. So you might semi-spam a unit attempting to get this or that trait for advancement on a particular unit. Being able to simply pick that trait would save you alot of money compared to said unit spam.

In multiplayer, I am not as sure. Considering all the traits are nice in their own way, I suppose it would be a bit much cost to eat to pick a trait, but then again, maybe not.

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Bob_The_Mighty
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by Bob_The_Mighty »

I thought it might be worth mentioning that Bob's RPG Era allows you to choose your leader's traits. :D
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Des
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by Des »

donkey_noob_trash1 wrote: People who prefer randomness over strategy are, by and large, poor players. And it makes sense that they would be. If you're an above average player, why would you want an aspect of the game that would give your opponent a non-skill based edge?
This assessment assumes that randomness and strategy cannot coexist and are at odds with one another. Contrarily, randomness is a huge factor in many aspects of life; namely, war. To take out random aspects and create an environment where everything can be controlled would be to create an illusion. The more realistic strategy game does not do away with random elements, it embraces them.

The traits system is true to life in that you must deal with the fact that you cannot control the troops at your disposal, just as a general cannot.

I've played (at great length) many, many other types of strategy games with less luck involved including Warcraft, Starcraft, Command & Conquer, Heroes of Might & Magic, and Company of Heroes among others. I, too, believed that the most control I had over my troops, the better. But what keeps me coming back to Wesnoth time and time again is being handed a situation where I have to quickly assess the best course of action, knowing full-well that it can go horribly wrong. Assessing that, also known as risk management, is a skill in and of itself and most definitely falls under a true sense of the word, "strategy."
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by Yoyobuae »

The problems with traits depend a lot on the situation. On a map with allows few recruits, and using tactics which rely on low hp units (HODOR, saurian skirmishers), getting a couple of quick/intelligent units is, quite possibly, a disaster.

I guess that is the problem of relying too much on the the defense % of those units. It is a gamble, pretty much. But it can be so annoying when the odds your unit dying changes increases by 20%, just because of traits.

I guess the lesson is: don't rely on traits. Don't use the units&tactics which can get shafted by getting poor traits.

I personally refuse to let the randomness of traits limit the tactics and types of units I can use (only 6 types of units is already quite limited). So I will take the gamble, at least it can be very fun when it plays out well. And the times it doesn't, I will try to forget as quickly as possible.

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Icedrake
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by Icedrake »

I like it that units get random traits. Makes the units more unique, rather than like you're just getting random units, who are all the same.

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netzakh
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Selectable Unit Traits: REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM

Post by netzakh »

RANT MODE ON

Embarking on the proposed idea to select a recruited unit's traits (maybe at a cost), I propose that during every fight, before every hit the player is allowed to select whether the hit is going to be successful, unsuccessful, or left for the RNG (maybe at a cost.)

RANT MODE OFF

Molean
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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by Molean »

You should not rant sarcasm, or worse, nonsense, in someone elses idea thread. Lets please be decent to each other as much as we can, ok netzakh?

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Re: Selectable Unit Traits: A Proposal for Future Versions

Post by thespaceinvader »

Seems like a logical objection to me, albeit one which was perhaps stated poorly. Good idea, bad idea, it makes little difference - this would change the basic gameplay of Wesnoth, and as such, will not be happening in mainline. You're welcome to pursue it in UMC should the urge take you.

Since the discussion is getting somewhat heated now, I'm going to curtail it by locking the thread before anyone can say anything they might regret.
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