Random Map Generator Improvements

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foolius
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Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by foolius » November 8th, 2008, 12:48 am

Hi, and again I apologize if this has been mentioned before.

I like playing random maps on multiplayer. Do other people like to do this? Because I think it deserves its own create game setting. Playing a random map game is sort of different choice than just picking a map (since you're often fiddling with a lot of settings). At a minimum, I think there should be more default options for how you pick them. Right now it is always 40x40, two players, etc.

First, I think there should be an easy way to pick a few "standard" random map settings.

* Small (default) 40x40
* Medium 60x60
* Large 80x80
* Ginormous 100x100 (or some combination of that)

Likewise, I think you should be able to set the number of the players earlier.

Ideally there should be a way to SAVE random game settings (in case you really like a few default settings). This is also because of the fact you often have to regenerate the map a few times to get a decent map.

___________

Finally, this is a somewhat different suggestion, I was wondering if there would be different TYPES of random maps. For example one type of Random Map could be "Man in the Middle". I don't think it would be that hard to create a random map which automatically generated a Castle in the center of the map?

This would allow for "asymmetrical" gaming. Where maybe player 1 (or a random player) is in the center. Depending on the settings, that player could get a bonus in gold or whatever. (The castle in the center could also simply be left empty)

I don't think players should be too worried about balance in this case -- it is a random map after all, and not suitable for tournament gaming.

Just a suggestion!

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Simons Mith
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Re: Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by Simons Mith » November 8th, 2008, 10:58 am

I enjoy random map games too, and would also be keen to see these ideas implemented.
 

Rhuvaen
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Re: Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by Rhuvaen » November 8th, 2008, 11:53 am

Hello - have you not found the "settings" button? You'll find all the options in a dialog there. :)

By the way, 40x40 is enormous for normal 1v1 by typical MP standards. I'm intrigued that you consider it "small". I have a feeling that many random map players actually play more a game of hide and seek and village capture than a confrontational game... but often in these types of games the outcome is decided before the first units come to fight.

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Simons Mith
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Re: Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by Simons Mith » November 10th, 2008, 1:58 pm

@Rhu - Yes, you can twiddle the settings to your heart's content. But as some of the sliders do not even have a visible numeric scale, how are you supposed to record the settings you picked? I do draw the line at dragging the slider across and counting the clicks as I do so. And even embedding the generator settings used into the map when it's saved doesn't make it that easy to create another random map with the exact same slider values.
 

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Re: Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by Rhuvaen » November 11th, 2008, 9:32 pm

Simons Mith wrote:some of the sliders do not even have a visible numeric scale, how are you supposed to record the settings you picked?
Oh, I see. The slider values for hill iterations and size don't get displayed anymore..

Hm, I like this idea a lot and see a possibility of making another MP map generator with in-game menus and map generation. Such as: you set the settings in the first scenario, and then generate a map for the second. Plus, there could be some added features like a random "monster" option or thematic terrain_masks (map parts)...

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zookeeper
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Re: Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by zookeeper » November 11th, 2008, 9:39 pm

Rhuvaen wrote:Hm, I like this idea a lot and see a possibility of making another MP map generator with in-game menus and map generation. Such as: you set the settings in the first scenario, and then generate a map for the second.
Nah, just allow the user to manipulate the settings from the right-click menu, and then regenerate the map immediately (or on command) without advancing from one scenario to another. That'd be pretty convenient.

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foolius
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Re: Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by foolius » November 11th, 2008, 9:50 pm

Simons Mith wrote:@Rhu - Yes, you can twiddle the settings to your heart's content. But as some of the sliders do not even have a visible numeric scale, how are you supposed to record the settings you picked? I do draw the line at dragging the slider across and counting the clicks as I do so. And even embedding the generator settings used into the map when it's saved doesn't make it that easy to create another random map with the exact same slider values.

Thanks Simon --

@Rhu -- yes that's what I meant. I know that you can change the settings -- the frustration comes from having to fiddle with the sliders every time.

Partly the question is whether or not people actually like the random maps. I agree that the maps are almost always unbalanced, but I like the challenge. You don't have the bragging rights that it was a fair fight afterwards, but I enjoy having to sit down to assess a completely new situation. If you play for fun and challenge, you don't mind losing.

I was thinking that the game could sort of standardize some archtypes of random maps (the way it does for different terrain: marsh, desert, etc.). You could tell someone, let's play a "standard medium map" or a "castle in the center large map", and start (re-)generating maps.

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Re: Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by Rhuvaen » November 11th, 2008, 11:40 pm

zookeeper wrote:Nah, just allow the user to manipulate the settings from the right-click menu, and then regenerate the map immediately (or on command) without advancing from one scenario to another. That'd be pretty convenient.
True, but can it be done? I mean using the generator algorithm, not some hackneyed WML use of {RANDOM} and [terrain]?
foolius wrote:I was thinking that the game could sort of standardize some archtypes of random maps (the way it does for different terrain: marsh, desert, etc.). You could tell someone, let's play a "standard medium map" or a "castle in the center large map", and start (re-)generating maps.
Yes, I think having useful templates like this instead of "do you want a map that's unbalanced because it has too much snow, desert or marsh?" would be nice to have.

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zookeeper
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Re: Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by zookeeper » November 12th, 2008, 5:09 am

Rhuvaen wrote:
zookeeper wrote:Nah, just allow the user to manipulate the settings from the right-click menu, and then regenerate the map immediately (or on command) without advancing from one scenario to another. That'd be pretty convenient.
True, but can it be done? I mean using the generator algorithm, not some hackneyed WML use of {RANDOM} and [terrain]?
Sorry, I misunderstood a bit what you were after. No, it couldn't work without advancing from scenario to scenario...but the transition could be automatic and immediate, of course, which is probably what you meant originally.

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Re: Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by Simons Mith » November 12th, 2008, 3:56 pm

zookeeper wrote:
foolius wrote:I was thinking that the game could sort of standardize some archtypes of random maps (the way it does for different terrain: marsh, desert, etc.). You could tell someone, let's play a "standard medium map" or a "castle in the center large map", and start (re-)generating maps.
Yes, I think having useful templates like this instead of "do you want a map that's unbalanced because it has too much snow, desert or marsh?" would be nice to have.
Here's an interesting spinoff -- once there's a 'standard' way of describing random map settings, one could start relating the random map parameters used in various areas to the world map. For example, [n.b. I've not looked at the Wesnoth map to check if this example is sensible] maybe the area south of Elensefar is famously marshy, and tends to use a 'swamp' parameter of 20-30%, while the area east has lots of rolling hills but few mountains -- 'hills=35-45%' but 'hill_size=5-10%'. You can allow for weather and seasonal variations too; say Northern Wesnoth uses a snow parameter of 5-10% even in summer, and 50-70% in winter, while southern Wesnoth uses a range of 0% in summer to 30-45% in winter, and in drought years may use 'desert=5-10%'. And so on. You can put a generic map anywhere you need it, of course, but if you wanted a randomly-generated map to roughly follow the theme of the geographical area in which it has been placed, that sort of data could be useful. That way, if you do put an unusual map in an unxpected place, then you have a chance to foreshadow it or otherwise have the characters comment on it. Otherwise there's not really any easy way to determine whether a map even is unusual for its location.
 

KingdomAmericaCMG
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Re: Random Map Generator Improvements

Post by KingdomAmericaCMG » November 13th, 2008, 6:32 pm

And even embedding the generator settings used into the map when it's saved doesn't make it that easy to create another random map with the exact same slider values.
Solution
1. Make a numerical value show on the side (allow a person to type a number there)
2. Show the random seed value before map is created (allow a person to type there)

If the code is like other code that I've seen before the random seed value is the value in which the random forumula draws its algorythm from. I Have seen this feature in more simple random map generaters.

randomseed(number)
random
random
random

if i can remember right if the seed is chosed before the set of random numbers then the set of random numbers afterwards will be the same if you chose the same number for the seed.

I use to solve this by having the computer clock as the seed so the set of random numbers where never the same.

randomseed(clock)
random
random
random

Note: code above isnt exactly C++, I just cant remember, been a while since I wrote in C++

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