Holy Water to add an additional attack.
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This is the problem, which was addressed in depth in the mailing list discussion. The whole concept of creating Arcane as a damage type was to preclude the creation of a specific "faction only" weapon like what you're suggesting here. Rather than making a bunch of special cases using weapon specials, arcane gives a coherent basis for a different type of attack.Thrawn wrote:just make it clear when picking up holy that is it extremely special, and that won't be a problem
In essence by creating a holy weapon special you're duplicating a damage type that already exists, and as JB points out, fostering confusion in game world design.It does not mean you can't have a holy water, which makes a holy attack that does arcane damage.
I suspect having one foot in the past is the best way to understand the present.
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Yes.jb wrote:Am i missing something EP?
Chris NS's proposal was that the only effect of holy water would be to make the unit's attacks 50% more effective against the Undead.
This strikes me as a simple solution.
Also, I have no idea why a "holy" attack would do "arcane" damage.
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What chris_ns has described would be fine for a single campaign use in acquiring an "oil of X bane" where X is a type of unit. You might want to do something like having a sword of wolf's bane or a spear of dragon slaying, etc... But for undead, it seems to me easiest to just leave it as arcane damage. There is a very good reason for this as well. The AI does not currently handle WML made weapons specials very well, so it won't properly account for the effect of attacks made with it. It does properly use the arcane damage type.
"you can already do that with WML"
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I have no idea why Holy water as it is would be necessary to change. Holy water is a special item used in scenarios where it's fitting. The player can pick and choose which unit will apply it and besides, it's just one unit and the advantage tends to be greater than the disadvantage (if any).
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I'm not trying to argue with you, but it's not at all a simple solution. It would create a new Damage type that is unique to the unit that acquired the holy water only. (Damage type = standard damage + %50 to UD)
As HttT is generally considered the "master tutorial" preparing players for online MP battles and other Wesnoth gameplay, I think adding this unique damage type (instead of just using arcane) is doing a disservice to players trying to learn the game. It would be a great chance to learn and understand some of the nuances of how the arcane damage type works.
Well I don't understand how you don't consider this a new damage type.Chris NS's proposal was that the only effect of holy water would be to make the unit's attacks 50% more effective against the Undead.
This strikes me as a simple solution.
I'm not trying to argue with you, but it's not at all a simple solution. It would create a new Damage type that is unique to the unit that acquired the holy water only. (Damage type = standard damage + %50 to UD)
As HttT is generally considered the "master tutorial" preparing players for online MP battles and other Wesnoth gameplay, I think adding this unique damage type (instead of just using arcane) is doing a disservice to players trying to learn the game. It would be a great chance to learn and understand some of the nuances of how the arcane damage type works.
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Noyga: The lightbeam is a light beam; it's not specifically holy. The holy sword is definitely holy though. *shrug*
DF: Good point. On the other hand, the AI never has to deal with having a unit with holy water - and if the AI is a little worse at knowing which units it's vulnerable to, is it really an issue worthy of consideration? I don't know...
Na'enthos: It's not necessary to change. Irrevenant was suggesting a change because the current effect can be disadvantageous. It's not a big issue.
JB:
DF: Good point. On the other hand, the AI never has to deal with having a unit with holy water - and if the AI is a little worse at knowing which units it's vulnerable to, is it really an issue worthy of consideration? I don't know...
Na'enthos: It's not necessary to change. Irrevenant was suggesting a change because the current effect can be disadvantageous. It's not a big issue.
JB:
What are you saying is a new damage type? The type of the attack after it gets holy water? Let's say it was blade before, and it gets the holy water, now it's still blade. Blade is the same damage type as blade. There is no new damage type. Period.jb wrote:Well I don't understand how you don't consider this a new damage type.
Well I guess we're using different definitions of "damage type". But, "damage type" is a clearly defined concept. By your logic, there are dozens of damage types in Wesnoth. For instance, during the day, Lawful units use a different damage type (standard damage + 25% to everything). But, no, there are actually only six damage types in mainline Wesnoth.jb wrote:I'm not trying to argue with you, but it's not at all a simple solution. It would create a new Damage type that is unique to the unit that acquired the holy water only. (Damage type = standard damage + %50 to UD)
How is it "generally considered" that? I was under the impression that HttT is rather bad preparation for multiplayer battles. Furthermore, Battle for Wesnoth does not center around preparing the player for MP; the campaigns are a purpose unto themselves.jb wrote:As HttT is generally considered the "master tutorial" preparing players for online MP battles and other Wesnoth gameplay,
The only enemies that you can fight in HttT with holy water are undead. The player won't learn any nuances; they'll just learn "it works well against undead".jb wrote:I think adding this unique damage type (instead of just using arcane) is doing a disservice to players trying to learn the game. It would be a great chance to learn and understand some of the nuances of how the arcane damage type works.
It's all fun and games until someone loses a lawsuit. Oh, and by the way, sending me private messages won't work. :/ If you must contact me, there's an e-mail address listed on the website in my profile.
sigh, EP you just don't get it...I really wanted to let this one go, but alas.....here we go. Anyway, after this post I'll let it die and make no further posts...this topic really isn't worth this much effort.
Because after people play the tutorial, HttT is generally the next thing they play. Perhaps this has changed now because more campaigns are available. And while it may not be the best MP teacher, it is the closest thing. Furthmore, notice I did not say MP alone, but OTHER WESNOTH GAMEPLAY. That pretty much covers everything. I've always thought of this campaign as the one to teach ToD, Terrain, etc.
For Example: A holy-water enhanced Blade would not function as a blade damage type vs. UD. Rather it would function as Blade + 50%. This cannot be compared to ToD as you tried to imply. The +50% bonus vs. UD does not change...ever.
Yes, it is a new damage type because it does more damage to UD than the damage type would alone. Consider it an altered damage type if you like, which is even worse.What are you saying is a new damage type? The type of the attack after it gets holy water? Let's say it was blade before, and it gets the holy water, now it's still blade. Blade is the same damage type as blade. There is no new damage type. Period.
How is it "generally considered" that? I was under the impression that HttT is rather bad preparation for multiplayer battles. Furthermore, Battle for Wesnoth does not center around preparing the player for MP; the campaigns are a purpose unto themselves.
Because after people play the tutorial, HttT is generally the next thing they play. Perhaps this has changed now because more campaigns are available. And while it may not be the best MP teacher, it is the closest thing. Furthmore, notice I did not say MP alone, but OTHER WESNOTH GAMEPLAY. That pretty much covers everything. I've always thought of this campaign as the one to teach ToD, Terrain, etc.
That is not my logic at all. This is your failure to understand. I was explaining why the Holy-Water enhanced weapon would be considered a new damage type vs. UD units.Well I guess we're using different definitions of "damage type". But, "damage type" is a clearly defined concept. By your logic, there are dozens of damage types in Wesnoth. For instance, during the day, Lawful units use a different damage type (standard damage + 25% to everything). But, no, there are actually only six damage types in mainline Wesnoth.
For Example: A holy-water enhanced Blade would not function as a blade damage type vs. UD. Rather it would function as Blade + 50%. This cannot be compared to ToD as you tried to imply. The +50% bonus vs. UD does not change...ever.
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I'd argue that you are the one who just doesn't get it. You haven't explained why my example is not parallel to yours; you have just repeated yourself.jb wrote:sigh, EP you just don't get it...
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This thread clearly inspired a lot of interest.
To get it back on topic (<hint><hint>):
Note to all: I have previously suggested the idea of representing a damage multiplier vs Undead as a weapon Special Ability. It was (justifiably) shot down as doing the same job as the Arcane damage type only less flexibly and more confusingly. The general idea may have some merit in the context of <something>-bane weapons vs non-undead races (or unit types), but that is a discussion for a different thread. IMO, it will probably take someone implementing it in a UMC for the idea to go anywhere.
To get it back on topic (<hint><hint>):
Okay. So the question becomes: Is this something that's worth the trouble of adding? Obviously it would be useful for the proposed purpose (which is admittedly niche) - but would it be of enough general value to be worth it?Elvish Pillager wrote:This is the issue. WML can't get enough information about the unit type.irrevenant wrote:Can you not access the information from the original attack required to populate a new one?
[...]
Copying all the potential weapon specials and animations would be a horrible pile of WML.
Note to all: I have previously suggested the idea of representing a damage multiplier vs Undead as a weapon Special Ability. It was (justifiably) shot down as doing the same job as the Arcane damage type only less flexibly and more confusingly. The general idea may have some merit in the context of <something>-bane weapons vs non-undead races (or unit types), but that is a discussion for a different thread. IMO, it will probably take someone implementing it in a UMC for the idea to go anywhere.
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I think the attacks with holy water are fine the way they are, except
Shouldn't a weapon that has become "holy" remain so in subsequent scenarios instead of arcane disappearing after the one scenario it is found in? Does it "de-holy" afterwards?
Shouldn't a weapon that has become "holy" remain so in subsequent scenarios instead of arcane disappearing after the one scenario it is found in? Does it "de-holy" afterwards?
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