Holy Water to add an additional attack.

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jb
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Post by jb »

Chris NS
I'm actually wondering if it might make sense to treat holy attacks (i.e. attacks from units with holy water/amulets in campaigns) differently from arcane attacks altogether.
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I propose we use Chris NS's idea.
Am i missing something EP?
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Post by Noy »

Thrawn wrote:just make it clear when picking up holy that is it extremely special, and that won't be a problem :)
This is the problem, which was addressed in depth in the mailing list discussion. The whole concept of creating Arcane as a damage type was to preclude the creation of a specific "faction only" weapon like what you're suggesting here. Rather than making a bunch of special cases using weapon specials, arcane gives a coherent basis for a different type of attack.

In essence by creating a holy weapon special you're duplicating a damage type that already exists, and as JB points out, fostering confusion in game world design.It does not mean you can't have a holy water, which makes a holy attack that does arcane damage.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

jb wrote:Am i missing something EP?
Yes.

Chris NS's proposal was that the only effect of holy water would be to make the unit's attacks 50% more effective against the Undead.

This strikes me as a simple solution.

:? Also, I have no idea why a "holy" attack would do "arcane" damage.
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Post by Noyga »

Because all the already existing 'holy' attacks do arcane damage (Lightbeam, Paladin's sword)...
Having non arcane holy attack would be quite confusing...
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Post by Darth Fool »

What chris_ns has described would be fine for a single campaign use in acquiring an "oil of X bane" where X is a type of unit. You might want to do something like having a sword of wolf's bane or a spear of dragon slaying, etc... But for undead, it seems to me easiest to just leave it as arcane damage. There is a very good reason for this as well. The AI does not currently handle WML made weapons specials very well, so it won't properly account for the effect of attacks made with it. It does properly use the arcane damage type.
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Post by Na'enthos »

I have no idea why Holy water as it is would be necessary to change. Holy water is a special item used in scenarios where it's fitting. The player can pick and choose which unit will apply it and besides, it's just one unit and the advantage tends to be greater than the disadvantage (if any).
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Post by jb »

EP
Chris NS's proposal was that the only effect of holy water would be to make the unit's attacks 50% more effective against the Undead.

This strikes me as a simple solution.
Well I don't understand how you don't consider this a new damage type.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but it's not at all a simple solution. It would create a new Damage type that is unique to the unit that acquired the holy water only. (Damage type = standard damage + %50 to UD)

As HttT is generally considered the "master tutorial" preparing players for online MP battles and other Wesnoth gameplay, I think adding this unique damage type (instead of just using arcane) is doing a disservice to players trying to learn the game. It would be a great chance to learn and understand some of the nuances of how the arcane damage type works.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Noyga: The lightbeam is a light beam; it's not specifically holy. The holy sword is definitely holy though. *shrug*

DF: Good point. On the other hand, the AI never has to deal with having a unit with holy water - and if the AI is a little worse at knowing which units it's vulnerable to, is it really an issue worthy of consideration? I don't know...

Na'enthos: It's not necessary to change. Irrevenant was suggesting a change because the current effect can be disadvantageous. It's not a big issue.

JB:
jb wrote:Well I don't understand how you don't consider this a new damage type.
What are you saying is a new damage type? The type of the attack after it gets holy water? Let's say it was blade before, and it gets the holy water, now it's still blade. Blade is the same damage type as blade. There is no new damage type. Period.
jb wrote:I'm not trying to argue with you, but it's not at all a simple solution. It would create a new Damage type that is unique to the unit that acquired the holy water only. (Damage type = standard damage + %50 to UD)
Well I guess we're using different definitions of "damage type". But, "damage type" is a clearly defined concept. By your logic, there are dozens of damage types in Wesnoth. For instance, during the day, Lawful units use a different damage type (standard damage + 25% to everything). But, no, there are actually only six damage types in mainline Wesnoth.
jb wrote:As HttT is generally considered the "master tutorial" preparing players for online MP battles and other Wesnoth gameplay,
How is it "generally considered" that? I was under the impression that HttT is rather bad preparation for multiplayer battles. Furthermore, Battle for Wesnoth does not center around preparing the player for MP; the campaigns are a purpose unto themselves.
jb wrote:I think adding this unique damage type (instead of just using arcane) is doing a disservice to players trying to learn the game. It would be a great chance to learn and understand some of the nuances of how the arcane damage type works.
The only enemies that you can fight in HttT with holy water are undead. The player won't learn any nuances; they'll just learn "it works well against undead".
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Post by jb »

sigh, EP you just don't get it...I really wanted to let this one go, but alas.....here we go. Anyway, after this post I'll let it die and make no further posts...this topic really isn't worth this much effort.
What are you saying is a new damage type? The type of the attack after it gets holy water? Let's say it was blade before, and it gets the holy water, now it's still blade. Blade is the same damage type as blade. There is no new damage type. Period.
Yes, it is a new damage type because it does more damage to UD than the damage type would alone. Consider it an altered damage type if you like, which is even worse.
How is it "generally considered" that? I was under the impression that HttT is rather bad preparation for multiplayer battles. Furthermore, Battle for Wesnoth does not center around preparing the player for MP; the campaigns are a purpose unto themselves.


Because after people play the tutorial, HttT is generally the next thing they play. Perhaps this has changed now because more campaigns are available. And while it may not be the best MP teacher, it is the closest thing. Furthmore, notice I did not say MP alone, but OTHER WESNOTH GAMEPLAY. That pretty much covers everything. I've always thought of this campaign as the one to teach ToD, Terrain, etc.
Well I guess we're using different definitions of "damage type". But, "damage type" is a clearly defined concept. By your logic, there are dozens of damage types in Wesnoth. For instance, during the day, Lawful units use a different damage type (standard damage + 25% to everything). But, no, there are actually only six damage types in mainline Wesnoth.
That is not my logic at all. This is your failure to understand. I was explaining why the Holy-Water enhanced weapon would be considered a new damage type vs. UD units.

For Example: A holy-water enhanced Blade would not function as a blade damage type vs. UD. Rather it would function as Blade + 50%. This cannot be compared to ToD as you tried to imply. The +50% bonus vs. UD does not change...ever.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

jb wrote:sigh, EP you just don't get it...
I'd argue that you are the one who just doesn't get it. You haven't explained why my example is not parallel to yours; you have just repeated yourself.
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Post by irrevenant »

:shock: This thread clearly inspired a lot of interest.

To get it back on topic (<hint><hint>):
Elvish Pillager wrote:
irrevenant wrote:Can you not access the information from the original attack required to populate a new one?
This is the issue. WML can't get enough information about the unit type.
[...]
Copying all the potential weapon specials and animations would be a horrible pile of WML.
Okay. So the question becomes: Is this something that's worth the trouble of adding? Obviously it would be useful for the proposed purpose (which is admittedly niche) - but would it be of enough general value to be worth it?

Note to all: I have previously suggested the idea of representing a damage multiplier vs Undead as a weapon Special Ability. It was (justifiably) shot down as doing the same job as the Arcane damage type only less flexibly and more confusingly. The general idea may have some merit in the context of <something>-bane weapons vs non-undead races (or unit types), but that is a discussion for a different thread. IMO, it will probably take someone implementing it in a UMC for the idea to go anywhere.
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Post by Edward V Riley »

I think the attacks with holy water are fine the way they are, except

Shouldn't a weapon that has become "holy" remain so in subsequent scenarios instead of arcane disappearing after the one scenario it is found in? Does it "de-holy" afterwards?
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Post by MDG »

Sometimes it does (Eastern Invasion), sometimes it doesn't (Heir to the Throne). It's at the discretion of the campaign designer.
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Post by Edward V Riley »

ah, ok. That's fine then. It's their campaign and they can do it any way they see fit. I was just curious as to why. Thanks for explaining that.
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Post by DDR »

Personal preference, probably.

I wonder if the hold attack only remains as long as the weapon is wet, or if when the water dries up the holy goes away. 8)
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