Refuse Help of Allies in Campaigns

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darkwraith007
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Refuse Help of Allies in Campaigns

Post by darkwraith007 » January 27th, 2007, 3:05 am

Hello.

Short version:

1-Refuse help of allies not under your control (remove/disable them, but keep the main leader so the campaign doesn't break, perhaps disabling the allied ability to recruit), as an option in the mainline campaigns.

2-Bonus gold to keep alive allied leaders, either protecting them yourself or have their units (if you want to let them recruit) protect their leader from dying at all costs or else if the leader dies then all units recruited by that leader die as well, automatically, but only for allies and not for enemies.

3-Any AI leader (allied or enemy) that goes into negative gold as a result of excessive units requiring large amounts of upkeep, those units (except loyal ones) start to desert the battle and are lost forever/unrecallable.


Long version:

1-My idea is for the player to have the option to refuse the help of their allies not under their control, perhaps a simple thing like right-clicking the leader and selecting "Don't help me at all" or something similar. This way, in scenarioes like the (in)famous "Elves Besieged", I don't have the urge to murder every single one of those stupid allied elves that steal your kills on purpose! Some allies, better to be able to refuse their help then to have them steal your kills.

I personally would love to see this, and alternatively if noone is willing to implement this as a toggle-type thing, I think I would just go alter the mainline campaigns (for personal use, and maybe post them if anyone wants) and remove/weaken the allies altogether, pretty easy to just give your ally/allies 0 villages, 0 starting gold, very weak units (like 1 hp maybe so the ones already there will die easily), and no/minimal income.

2-Allied leaders (primarily in Elves Besieged) seem to be expendable, and that's so sad, IMHO, so there should be a bonus if you keep them alive. If you disable their ability to recruit then you could protect them with some of your troops, alternatively they could start out with a small number of level 2 loyal units that only protect them, are defensive rather then offensive against the enemy. And if they can recruit as normal, there should be a massive penalty for their death by having every unit that they recruited suffer the penalty of death for allowing their leader to die in battle and not sufficiently protecting them. New AI scripting to change their behavior to be defensive rather then offensive perhaps, so that they protect their leaders at all costs. Also having BONUS GOLD for keeping them alive would be a very good incentive ^_^

3-One thing I realized is that if you have recruited or recalled units and they train your gold below zero, why does it go into negative? Why not have some type of punishment for such by having recruited units (most expensive ones first) "abandon" the battle and be lost forever or something? It seems very odd, especially in Elves Besieged, for enemy/allied AI units to be able to recruit so many units and not even have enough income to support the upkeep of them, going into the red (negative) in gold, and yet suffer NO consequence as such! wtf?



Problems:

1-Harder difficulty, but greater experience/rewards from doing it yourself. May break certain campaigns/scenarios unless done correctly. Involves coding and some stuff to make it a toggle/switch.

2-Part of the sadness/despair of Elves Besieged helps give your journey more importance/urgency. You work to avenge their deaths as well as free Wesnoth from unjust rule. Otherwise, they are easy cannon fodder, fairly powerful and they serve their purpose, so who cares if they die? Do you really need gold that much? (Actually you do, especially at the start, but it may unbalance if done too much).

3-Either kill off units each turn (most powerful recruited non-loyal units first) to simulate "desertion" (easy hack) or code in a new thing altogether (more time consuming). This is NOT "morale" but merely a very simple thing based solely on GOLD that the AI entity has; no fear, morale, or other emotional stuff involved.

I hope this helps.
If not, just ignore it, I'll just do it myself somehow. But I would love some help from actual coders to code it rather then me randomly hacking the code to suit my tastes. Coding it would present a much better and cleaner alternative to simple hacking that I could do. Plus my knowledge of programming is limited, at best.

Till then.

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irrevenant
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Re: Refuse Help of Allies in Campaigns

Post by irrevenant » January 27th, 2007, 3:18 am

darkwraith007 wrote:2-Part of the sadness/despair of Elves Besieged helps give your journey more importance/urgency. You work to avenge their deaths as well as free Wesnoth from unjust rule. Otherwise, they are easy cannon fodder, fairly powerful and they serve their purpose, so who cares if they die? Do you really need gold that much? (Actually you do, especially at the start, but it may unbalance if done too much).
Actually, I think it would be nice to have a 'prologue' scenario to HttT where, Galdrad, Konrad et. al. face off against some easy foe like a small band of outlaws. Then you'd actually have some attachment to the characters when they get mowed down in "Elves Besieged".

catwhowalksbyhimself
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Post by catwhowalksbyhimself » January 27th, 2007, 6:37 am

I believe, as far as the engine goes, all this, or most anyways, can already be done.

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Jetrel
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Re: Refuse Help of Allies in Campaigns

Post by Jetrel » January 27th, 2007, 6:59 am

darkwraith007 wrote:1-Refuse help of allies not under your control (remove/disable them, but keep the main leader so the campaign doesn't break, perhaps disabling the allied ability to recruit), as an option in the mainline campaigns.

2-Bonus gold to keep alive allied leaders, either protecting them yourself or have their units (if you want to let them recruit) protect their leader from dying at all costs or else if the leader dies then all units recruited by that leader die as well, automatically, but only for allies and not for enemies.
"This can already be done in WML". It just takes a campaign writer with moxie. These are good ideas.
darkwraith007 wrote:3-Any AI leader (allied or enemy) that goes into negative gold as a result of excessive units requiring large amounts of upkeep, those units (except loyal ones) start to desert the battle and are lost forever/unrecallable.
"Not being able to hire any more units" is a plenty severe enough penalty.



One great addition would be some improvements to the AI; making different AIs for different behaviours. The EB orcs would have an "onslaught" AI (which we nearly have, already), and the elves there would have an AI that would let them focus on guerilla tactics against their enemies. We have a Python API for these things, now we just need someone to write one.

Soliton
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Post by Soliton » January 27th, 2007, 7:12 am

If you don't like AI-controlled allies just use the ':droid' command on their sides and play them yourself.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott

darkwraith007
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thanks

Post by darkwraith007 » February 1st, 2007, 1:05 am

Thanks to everyone for the ideas/suggestions/responses. I shall make note of them when I'm busy hacking away at the code to fudge an approximate substitution to what I have in mind, fulfilling one or more of those three things that I've mentioned in the beginning of this thread regarding allied help.

I understand that these things can be done with currently available tools, however I have neither the knowledge nor the dedication to immerse myself in a study of WML and its associated programming naunces in order to accomplish the tasks I have set before me. I could use CampGen (or whatever its called) and have a nice GUI to go along with stuff to make things easier. That's probably what I will do, merely loading up the scenario(s) I wish to modify and then going through and figuring stuff out.

I'll post new things in here if and when I am able to actually post something of note in regards to my completed modification of AI behavior to the mainline scenario(s).

In response to the :droid: command. Yes, I understand I could use that but then again I could cheat like crazy, right? It may not be seen as cheating by some, but I'm sure many would see it as cheating and perhaps since I've already done many of the initial AI-assisted scenarios, I may revisit them in debug mode and experiment.

I did have a lot of fun recruiting 3rd (and higher) level units in the Test Scenario used for programming/debug (though it still mostly works even in the newest version 1.2). I can perhaps examine that code and then learn WML slowly, bit by bit.

Till then, and thanks again to everyone.

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