Concerning problems when starting-up

[Tux2B]

This is an idea that I got last time Wesnoth's crashed during the start-up : I think that when such a thing happens, an error message should be displayed, either in a normal window or in a console window.
Of course, computer-litterate people know that you can find the error message in the stderr.txt file, but not everyone is, so as more and more people using Wesnoth aren't as the community grows and the game becomes more well-known and more accessible, having such a feature would, IMHO help, even if the only thing displayed is : "There has been an error, check the stderr.txt file in the main Wesnoth directory" or something similar.

What do you think about it?

[scott]

This is an idea that I got last time Wesnoth's crashed during the start-up : I think that when such a thing happens, an error message should be displayed, either in a normal window or in a console window.
Of course, computer-litterate people know that you can find the error message in the stderr.txt file, but not everyone is, so as more and more people using Wesnoth aren't as the community grows and the game becomes more well-known and more accessible, having such a feature would, IMHO help, even if the only thing displayed is : "There has been an error, check the stderr.txt file in the main Wesnoth directory" or something similar.

What do you think about it?

You would have a different message for each operating system. Windows is the only OS that uses stderr.txt, unless one of the more obscure ones does too (ReactOS maybe?). Mac OS X actually has 2 locations. In linux, you don't need a message at all, because it all goes to the console anyway (unless an OS packager changed that). So, what exactly should it say again?

[Tux2B]

Ah... right.
I don't know much about C and C++, so I can't say what this precisely would be, but in Python, for an example, there are functions that allow you to get the error's code so your program know what to do when that happens.
Or maybe there is something like in python the try: except: exception handler.
But if it is too complicated, then never mind.

[scott]

Maybe a low-tech readme would serve the same purpose without requiring a change to the code. The code already has some OS-specific code in it, but I assume they want to keep it to a minimum, and I'm mostly thinking of situations where some OS might have a non-standard location for error output and need to edit the message. The mac already does this (sends output to the console application rather than the actual terminal), but it just happens to be common enough to get its own #ifdef sometimes.

[Tux2B]

Well, a try: except: block isn't OS specific. But as I haven't been through the Wesnoth code, I don't know if it really feasable. I would still like the opinion of a coder on it, though. Even if it isn't a major function, it is part of the efforts that open source software has to do in order to make it accessible to a larger public.

[irrevenant]

In linux, you don't need a message at all, because it all goes to the console anyway (unless an OS packager changed that).

I, for one, don't launch Wesnoth from the console, so I wouldn't see an error outputed there. I imagine that's the case for a lot of people using a modern Linux desktop.

It seems like a useful suggestion to me.

[scott]

In linux, you don't need a message at all, because it all goes to the console anyway (unless an OS packager changed that).

I, for one, don't launch Wesnoth from the console, so I wouldn't see an error outputed there. I imagine that's the case for a lot of people using a modern Linux desktop.

It seems like a useful suggestion to me.

Where does your stdout go to in that case?

[freim]

I, for one, don't launch Wesnoth from the console, so I wouldn't see an error outputed there. I imagine that's the case for a lot of people using a modern Linux desktop.

Then imo the obvious solution would be to start it from a console if you want the output or change the command run by the shortcut you use to run the game with redirection of stout to a file (and no I don't find the possible argument that this is hard for an average user to do to be any good. It's trivial compared to coding in some OS agnostic way of showing error output through a GUI).

I seem to always disagree with you irrevenant on these kind of topics... where you seem to think it's worth it to spend large coding efforts to make trivial problems go away instead of just expect people to make a tiny bit of effort.

[irrevenant]

I, for one, don't launch Wesnoth from the console, so I wouldn't see an error outputed there. I imagine that's the case for a lot of people using a modern Linux desktop.

Then imo the obvious solution would be to start it from a console if you want the output or change the command run by the shortcut you use to run the game with redirection of stout to a file (and no I don't find the possible argument that this is hard for an average user to do to be any good. It's trivial compared to coding in some OS agnostic way of showing error output through a GUI).

I wouldn't have argued that (though I think you underestimate how terrifying the command line is for some people in Windows and Linux alike).

However, I would have pointed out that that approach only works if you know in advance that it's going to crash.

I seem to always disagree with you irrevenant on these kind of topics... where you seem to think it's worth it to spend large coding efforts to make trivial problems go away instead of just expect people to make a tiny bit of effort.

I'm not a coder (though I'm currently dipping my toes in the shallow end with Python); I don't know how much effort is involved, and if you tell me it's too much effort for the return, I'll believe you.

Generally, I argue in favour of trading a one-off investment of time for elimination of even a small recurring annoyance. But again, I'm not aware of how big an effort it is or the one investing the time, so if you tell me it's not worth it, I'll take your word for it.

[Tux2B]

Starting from command line is IMO not a good idea. It's even worse for the average user (it would only have the effect to frighten him, or to make him think that it isn't a finished game yet).

I don't consider this idea as very useful. It's a just suggestion for something I think should be implemented if it is easy, because it is better for the average (and begginer) user.

Concerning the code, I don't know how difficult it is, but I know that in Python it would be easy. This isn't a very important feature though, and there is no urge, but it would be good if there was some work done on some of those little things that seem trivial to us but that can cause head-aches to most computer users.

[scott]

Starting from command line is IMO not a good idea. It's even worse for the average user (it would only have the effect to frighten him, or to make him think that it isn't a finished game yet).

You guys are eroding the image I have of Linux users as bold, fearless, tinkering, gcc warriors ever in search of ultimate customization and disdainful of needlessly colorful GUIs.

I open a terminal window.
Then I type 'wesnoth'
It runs. Hooray!

But, I know what you mean. Mac users are the same way. Actually, I was too until I became associated with this game and learned a lot of cool unix stuff.

I'm curious now as to where the error messages actually go if you don't start from the command line. Doesn't this violate the law of conservation of output text?

[freim]

However, I would have pointed out that that approach only works if you know in advance that it's going to crash.

No, it works all the time. The difference is that you actually have some usefull output if it crashes, otherwise you just ignore it. The other approach I mentioned would do the same, you would only look at the file it redirects to if it crashed.

Starting from command line is IMO not a good idea. It's even worse for the average user (it would only have the effect to frighten him, or to make him think that it isn't a finished game yet).

Nonsense unless you think every computer user is an utter imbecile. For a person who is using GNU/Linux in the first place it's trivial to open a terminal window and type 'wesnoth'. Piling all sort of features into Wesnoth which only function is to mitigate some users lazyness is what is a bad idea.

[Tux2B]

You could be right about about Linux users, but most people playing games I know are using Windows.
This very idea concerning error messages might be a bad one, if it is too complicated, which is what you're telling me.
Maybe another way of resolving this would be to make a FAQ section on the wiki (I've been browsing through it but didn't find any).

[freim]

You could be right about about Linux users, but most people playing games I know are using Windows.
This very idea concerning error messages might be a bad one, if it is too complicated, which is what you're telling me.
Maybe another way of resolving this would be to make a FAQ section on the wiki (I've been browsing through it but didn't find any).

The question here is what is the target group for the functionality. If the target group is people who can do the following:
1. Identify that the problem is most likely because of a bug in Wesnoth
2. Locate a suitable place to report it (either gna bug interface or the tech support forum)
3. Make a report

...then I don't find it as unreasonable to expect them to be able to (with assistance if necessary) either locate the error file on windows or in Linux start Wesnoth in a terminal to reproduce the error, and relay the error msg.

If the target group for this is people who is ignorant (note ignorant!=stupid) of most aspects with using a modern computer then I wouldn't expect them to be able to make a report even if they got the error right in the face. It would probably scare them as you say more than the current way it works. If this functionaly is supposed to allow everyone to be able to report an error it needs to go much further. It will have to be something like the following:

if Wesnoth crashes show a dialog: "An error occured, do you want to report it?" with a button "report" and a button "cancel". The dialog could also have the possibility to expand to show the error to the user. This would be something easy enough for the "ignorant masses", however this would need a proper backend infrastructure to receive and handle all the error reports which is far from trivial in addition to the frontend work needed.

Edit: what would be an easy and a good idea would be to update:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9706

with information of how to obtain the needed info for a proper error report on the different platforms.

Edit2: made a new sticky with some info on how to report a bug

[Tux2B]

At first, when I was speaking about having a message to tell you there is an error, I wasn't thinking about people wanting to report it, but just as something that makes the user understand that the error comes from Wesnoth.

Your idea concerning something to make bug reports using a user interface is a good idea, but it needs a lot of work, which isn't really necessary (maybe it could be done later, but devs must have other priorities).

Udpating the "I have downloaded Wesnoth and it doesn't run - READ ME FIRST" can be a good idea, but then it should be renamed (to something like "Wesnoth FAQ : read this first before before posting a support request").
If needed, I can find some time to browse through the Technical Support forum and find what has been causing the more problems and that still seem unresolvable.