The issue of Undead vs Undead

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Noy
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Post by Noy »

umm maybe you should read my post before writing exactly what I just said.
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Post by jg »

Dragon Master wrote:uh kshinji...loyalists vs rebels isn't a mirror match, they are two totally different faction. Drake vs Drake is also slowed becuase anything with fire damage is now useless.
I say no to the fire wielding skellies. Every faction doesn't need a fire damage unit just so they have an anwer to undead.
I think kshinji meant that loyalist vs loyalists and elves vs. elves. Adding my thoughts to the fire-shooting skellie, I think it might be logical if the skellie himself looses 1-2hp if he shoots (skellies don't like fire :P).

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Post by kshinji »

Noy wrote:umm maybe you should read my post before writing exactly what I just said.
Does it matter? Ive read, and i agree with you. I just said some more about it (theory about reasons of such situation), and mentioned i just tested it.

I guess it would be rather Dragon Master who didnt read your post.

EDIT:

Firstly, sorry, it wasnt your post, which ive written in connection to.

Secondly, i just didnt notice your post. Dont get so offended, tough - noone taken any injury duirng production of my post and it wasnt animal tested. ;-)


Next thing is that i didnt write anythign about rebels or loyalist here. lol :shock: :roll:
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Post by Baufo »

Back to the original topic. So the tenor is: "Leave it like it is, undead matches are nice and amusing"?
Last edited by Baufo on August 29th, 2006, 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mythological
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Post by Mythological »

Oh boy
Dont you people read the threads before posting ?
I was the one who mentioned rebels and loyalists, not kshinji, as you can easily check. This kind of confusion happened the last time I posted in a thread ideas forum too :)
And I mentioned it in context of matchups rebels vs rebels and loyalists vs loyalists, not rebels vs loyalists as dragon master thinks.
I dont like posting this kind of messages like this one in which I have to point the obvious and which are generaly out of topic.
Anyway, the UD vs UD fight needs some kind of an improvement, as baufo noted when starting this topic. Undead, like the drakes, have weaknesses , but drake faction , unlike undead, has units which can exploit the weaknesses of the other units in the same faction, as it was mentioned above . Its like a more complex version of paper/scisors/stone situation, a thing UD lack. I would like to know what exactly the chages Noy mentioned are. And I believe that almost every player of the MP community thinks that undead vs undead matches are boring and need improvement , baufo.
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Post by kshinji »

Id also mention that undeads are all immune to poison, while having poisonous unit.

I think there are two ways to fasten UD mirror - matches:

* add at least one fire/holy attack - and maybe an impact attack too, but it wont solve the problem alone.

* add new weaknesses from the group of blade pierce cold for ghosts.

I guess the best way is the first one, and to not unbalance the game too much - the fire or holy wielding units should be 2 level, and somehow objectively worse than the other advancement opportunities, except when holy or fire is very good for opponent.
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Post by Sauron »

Hmmm, looking into 1.0.2 :twisted: I see no need 4 UD to receive fire damage. It would be useful vs wose mabye, but wose is weak enough vs axe (at night :D).
But seeing problem as it is I say - why not include an skeletal mauler?
If you want legend: many great warriors served in heavy infantry. Many of them died in fight and got buried in unholy ground of (here the name of the country where unholy ground was). Evil necromants from (guess where) made the great warriors - and plain heavily armoured warriors obey their orders, summonimg them to fight yet another battle. Being waken up from their last sleep the skeletal maulers fight with fierceful hatered everything that is alive (and undead 8) ).

I dare say hvy maulers should be as vulnerable to impact as revenants - not that weak as plain skels. I would give them 3x6 impact (and 3-balled flails in hands)

In my evil dreams I always wanted rather skeletal archer of 2nd level to be able shoot poisonous missiles (at much lower damage of course). But this will never happen unless I make another era :).

I would also enjoy "undead conservators/shamans" who heal(repair?) all undead troops (not 4 adepts, but liches too).

[sarcasm on]
mabye to make UD vs UD fight more interesting 4 some ppl Undead Holy Mages are required - but let them make their own eras
"The prior sancticity of those mages was corrupted and now they joyfully serve with their holy skills to the dreadful tyrany of necromants and liches."
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Last edited by Sauron on August 29th, 2006, 7:20 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Noy »

Mythological wrote:Oh boy
Dont you people read the threads before posting ?
I was the one who mentioned rebels and loyalists, not kshinji, as you can easily check. This kind of confusion happened the last time I posted in a thread ideas forum too :)
And I mentioned it in context of matchups rebels vs rebels and loyalists vs loyalists, not rebels vs loyalists as dragon master thinks.
I dont like posting this kind of messages like this one in which I have to point the obvious and which are generaly out of topic.
Anyway, the UD vs UD fight needs some kind of an improvement, as baufo noted when starting this topic. Undead, like the drakes, have weaknesses , but drake faction , unlike undead, has units which can exploit the weaknesses of the other units in the same faction, as it was mentioned above . Its like a more complex version of paper/scisors/stone situation, a thing UD lack. I would like to know what exactly the chages Noy mentioned are. And I believe that almost every player of the MP community thinks that undead vs undead matches are boring and need improvement , baufo.
They havent been agreed upon, but an increase of one or two damage to the WC will probably happen. I've been noticing that the WC hasn't really been all that useful lately, and it should be the unit you use against Skeletons, but its too weak as of now. By increasing the zombie's ability to do crush damage, it will make it a more favorable response to the Skeleton, which in turn can now easily zapped by the Dark adept, who is killed by the skeleton. There might be room to decrease the cold res on some units as well, but thats pretty preliminary.

Voila, a better balance and better matches.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Noy wrote:an increase of one or two damage to the WC will probably happen.
Now, *this* is a change I can agree with wholeheartedly! For MP use anyway...

Now that I think about it, that could be quite painful in HttT. On the other hand, it might be nice to increase their hitpoints instead of or in addition to increasing their damage.
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Mythological
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Post by Mythological »

Noy wrote:They havent been agreed upon, but an increase of one or two damage to the WC will probably happen. I've been noticing that the WC hasn't really been all that useful lately, and it should be the unit you use against Skeletons, but its too weak as of now. By increasing the zombie's ability to do crush damage, it will make it a more favorable response to the Skeleton, which in turn can now easily zapped by the Dark adept, who is killed by the skeleton. There might be room to decrease the cold res on some units as well, but thats pretty preliminary.

Voila, a better balance and better matches.
Sounds simple and effective. I hope it gets implemented. I wanted to suggests that WC's also get a few (1-2) extra hitpoints so that they dont get killed by skeletons with 2 strikes at night, but I see that Elvish Pillager beat me to it.
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Post by Noy »

That could happen myth. Again, DK is on holidays right now so we haven't looked at it since.


DK and my preliminary findings found that it wouldn't make much of a difference for most units at night, except the Skel with its impact weakness where it would recieve an extra 2 points of damage, I think (if I remember correctly).
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Post by JW »

So it would still cost 6g? :shock:

...hmmm....

6g for a 6-2 Impact wielder (12 damage) v 8g for a 4-3 Pierce wielder (12 damage).....

Granted that the gobby is useful against Drakes (even though the +10%dmg never really gets added due to the damage being so small and the daytime effects overtaking it), but isn't that favoring Undead even more considering how much easier it will be to spawn more Undead? I mean, WCs can add up in a hurry if you play them right...

I would think that a damage upgrade would more likely be accompanied with a hp drop before an hp increase (as a couple people are asking for).


...okay...so gobbies get traits too...I always forget that.
Last edited by JW on August 29th, 2006, 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Noy
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Post by Noy »

JW wrote:So it would still cost 6g? :shock:

...hmmm....

6g for a 6-2 Impact wielder (12 damage) v 8g for a 4-3 Pierce wielder (12 damage).....

Granted that the gobby is useful against Drakes (even though the +10%dmg never really gets added due to the damage being so small and the daytime effects overtaking it), but isn't that favoring Undead even more considering how much easier it will be to spawn more Undead? I mean, WCs can add up in a hurry if you play them right...

I would think that a damage upgrade would more likely be accompanied with a hp drop before an hp increase (as a couple people are asking for).


...okay...so gobbies get traits too...I always forget that.
JW, you know better than to make direct unit to unit comparisons at lvl1/0 especially given how the balance works.
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Post by JW »

Noy wrote:JW, you know better than to make direct unit to unit comparisons at lvl1/0 especially given how the balance works.
I do, but it's the only logical comparison to another unit in the game.

Besides, after posting I realized that gobbies get traits which can be big (Strong especially), so it's probably worth the extra 2g.

I'm still worried that zombie spam will be a lot more popular with the change though.

-edit-
And I know this is intended to be beneficial....it just gives me a weird feeling. I'm sure you guys will make sure it doesn't get too powerful though, so I won't worry about it.
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Post by Noy »

But it isn't the direct comparison, they play completely different roles. The gobbo at most is a stop gap unit between Archers and grunts for the Northerners against the Drakes. The WC will now serve as a counter for the skeleton (and if they come out the saracens). You would never buy a spearman against the undead, the pierce damage is worthless, you'd get trolls and archers instead.
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