The issue of Undead vs Undead

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Baufo
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The issue of Undead vs Undead

Post by Baufo »

Undead vs Undead is boring - everybody knows. My idea is to let units with undead trait gain a damage bonus when fighting another unit with the undead trait. That would not affect balancement of other factions and could speed up boring undead matches a bit.
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Re: The issue of Undead vs Undead

Post by Oreb »

Baufo wrote:Undead vs Undead is boring - everybody knows. My idea is to let units with undead trait gain a damage bonus when fighting another unit with the undead trait. That would not affect balancement of other factions and could speed up boring undead matches a bit.
I love the droning on off undead vs undead, its very comical. The zombies do alright with their impact, and a vampire bat can kill a ghost :shock:

But I do agree, they might need something to kill other undead, ghouls and adepts are basically useless in these matches
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Re: The issue of Undead vs Undead

Post by Boucman »

Baufo wrote:That would not affect balancement of other factions and could speed up boring undead matches a bit.

actually it would... imagine a game where you have undead on both side and other factions involved (2vs2 games)
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Post by Dragon Master »

mirror matches are usually boring, don't get me started with dwarves vs. dwarves.
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Baufo
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Post by Baufo »

Dragon Master wrote:mirror matches are usually boring, don't get me started with dwarves vs. dwarves.
I agree that mirror matches are boring. But no match is as boring as ud vs ud. If both players know what they are doing there is no chance to finish Den of Onis before turn 50.
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Post by suvorov »

Yes undead versus undead boils down to a slap fight. Also I'm no good at it. In Mp Games i just send my adepts to help allies with other non-undead enemy factions and dig in with my skeletons.
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Post by Mythological »

Not every mirror match is boring....drakes vs drakes duel results in a very quick & bloody match. Loyalists and elves are ok too. But yes, UD vs UD is boring - it actually used to be worse before, when WC's had ressistances to pierce and blade and were a no-brainer units for fighting enemy undead, resulting in a games which were real zomifests . Now you can use skeleton archers and fighters as well. The thing is - undead dont have good units which could exploit each others weaknesses. They are mostly weak to fire, impact and holy, but they have only impact, and spamming corpses doesnt result in an intersting game. No one could find a better solution that would fit the faction personality.
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Post by kshinji »

I hava an idea, where holy attack could be used. It could be "Return" or soemtyhing like this. It would be good for Dark Adept or its Advancments.

Ranged, holy (magical)

And now as i think of undead fire unit, i guess Skeleton Archers possible advancment could be Skeleton Arsonist, with attack of:

Ranged, fire (marksman)
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Post by Baufo »

kshinji wrote:I hava an idea, where holy attack could be used. It could be "Return" or soemtyhing like this. It would be good for Dark Adept or its Advancments.

Ranged, holy (magical)
Level 1 holy seems deprecated (for some good reasons IMO) and somebody who spends his time summon dead would really not like to use holy magic at the same time.
kshinji wrote:And now as i think of undead fire unit, i guess Skeleton Archers possible advancment could be Skeleton Arsonist, with attack of:

Ranged, fire (marksman)
Somehow I like the idea, but without marksmanship. Even if I don't know if I would like to deal with fire if I had -20% fire resistence. (All units that do fire and cold damage are usually resistant or neutral but never weak to these damage types.)
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Post by kshinji »

The first one have holy type only for technical purposes, because its meant to send away enemy undead unit. The second is often encountered in many games. As well as skeleton mages.
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Post by Noy »

Mythological wrote:Not every mirror match is boring....drakes vs drakes duel results in a very quick & bloody match. Loyalists and elves are ok too. But yes, UD vs UD is boring - it actually used to be worse before, when WC's had ressistances to pierce and blade and were a no-brainer units for fighting enemy undead, resulting in a games which were real zomifests . Now you can use skeleton archers and fighters as well. The thing is - undead dont have good units which could exploit each others weaknesses. They are mostly weak to fire, impact and holy, but they have only impact, and spamming corpses doesnt result in an intersting game. No one could find a better solution that would fit the faction personality.
This will probably change in the future, I had a couple of ideas in mind that will come after 1.2 to try to rectify this.


Kshinji: if you think putting holy on undead is a good idea, you still don't have a clue.
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Post by Dragon Master »

uh kshinji...loyalists vs rebels isn't a mirror match, they are two totally different faction. Drake vs Drake is also slowed becuase anything with fire damage is now useless.
I say no to the fire wielding skellies. Every faction doesn't need a fire damage unit just so they have an anwer to undead.
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Post by kshinji »

Dragon Master wrote:uh kshinji...loyalists vs rebels isn't a mirror match, they are two totally different faction. Drake vs Drake is also slowed becuase anything with fire damage is now useless.
Wait wait wait. Wtf? Why do you tell about it to me?
Dragon Master wrote:I say no to the fire wielding skellies. Every faction doesn't need a fire damage unit just so they have an anwer to undead.
Well, i guess these were just proposals, if developers agreed to make this faction have units with holy and/or fire attack. Im still sure this wouldnt destroy the balance, if these unit were 2lvl.
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Post by Noy »

Dragon Master wrote:uh kshinji...loyalists vs rebels isn't a mirror match, they are two totally different faction. Drake vs Drake is also slowed becuase anything with fire damage is now useless.
I say no to the fire wielding skellies. Every faction doesn't need a fire damage unit just so they have an anwer to undead.
Except for Saurians, which have cold and pierce damage, and are weak against fire damage. Its probably got one of the better balances, just that high powered low defence units vs High powered low defence units usually entails quick decisive games as myth pointed out.
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Post by kshinji »

Drake vs Drtake are actually quick and violent. I just tested it three times at The Clash. Each time game had less than 15 turns.

Its because after you buy mostly sauriansd and clashers, then some other drakes. You end up in situation ,where every unit on the booard have some unit weak against it which it can attack. This way dealt damage is a lot higher.
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