Ideas on ideas

[Ken_Oh]

Mille, the idea isn't bad, but as Noy said, the devs if the current mainline era believe higher defense stifles gameplay.

You've presented your idea clearly and I think it's novel, KISS and worthy to make it into somewhere. The problem is, unless any mainline dev jumps on the idea right here and now, it's not going to see its way into mainline. The fact of the matter is that most gameplay-changing ideas since 1.0.2 have no chance. AFAIK, I haven't even been around long enough to see any such idea get the "go ahead" to be put into the mainline era, let alone. Not that I've been around for long, but you can see the point that I'm making.

You don't have to defend your idea. It's a waste of time. It supposedly CABD (can already be done via WML) so your time would be better spent working out the WML code to make it possible and then posting that, to see if anyone who is working on non-mainline content (eras, campaigns, etc.) wants to use it, or start your own era or a modification of any existing era.

Just don't take the "rejection" of your idea to mean that it's useless or that you need to "prove" that it has some worth by arguing about it. It isn't useless but it's just not going to fit into mainline....for now. I imagine the only way any new ability is going to see its way into mainline is if someone codes it, puts it into something else, balances it and has a mainline dev see how well it works and then decides to try it out.

[Mille]

Yeah - Ken Oh. Let me say it this way - What really makes this frustrating is the style of conversation. I have no problem with rejecting an idea. Sometimes it doesn´t match - sometimes its simply stupid.

But what is done in the idea forum this days is mostly killing discussions, before they start. Wesnoth is a cool game and balancing is quite good. I like to play the game and i love its style. But this doen´t mean everything is perfect.

I think we have a similar feeling of this. Actually some devs think the gameplay is perfect, and nothing should be changed on it. Complexity is used as an argument of homicide here, and CABD is referred as a standard solution.

Well i think this is only contra productive - as said the raven - Nevermore

Mille, the idea isn't bad, but as Noy said, the devs if the current mainline era believe higher defense stifles gameplay.

You've presented your idea clearly and I think it's novel, KISS and worthy to make it into somewhere. The problem is, unless any mainline dev jumps on the idea right here and now, it's not going to see its way into mainline. The fact of the matter is that most gameplay-changing ideas since 1.0.2 have no chance. AFAIK, I haven't even been around long enough to see any such idea get the "go ahead" to be put into the mainline era, let alone. Not that I've been around for long, but you can see the point that I'm making.

You don't have to defend your idea. It's a waste of time. It supposedly CABD (can already be done via WML) so your time would be better spent working out the WML code to make it possible and then posting that, to see if anyone who is working on non-mainline content (eras, campaigns, etc.) wants to use it, or start your own era or a modification of any existing era.

Just don't take the "rejection" of your idea to mean that it's useless or that you need to "prove" that it has some worth by arguing about it. It isn't useless but it's just not going to fit into mainline....for now. I imagine the only way any new ability is going to see its way into mainline is if someone codes it, puts it into something else, balances it and has a mainline dev see how well it works and then decides to try it out.

[Darth Fool]

I imagine the only way any new ability is going to see its way into mainline is if someone codes it, puts it into something else, balances it and has a mainline dev see how well it works and then decides to try it out.

This is almost certainly true for anything that CABD.

[Mille]

I imagine the only way any new ability is going to see its way into mainline is if someone codes it, puts it into something else, balances it and has a mainline dev see how well it works and then decides to try it out.

This is almost certainly true for anything that CABD.

Yes - But this whole threa has REALLY nothing to do with WML

[Ken_Oh]

Yeah, Mille, the thing is maybe some of the mainline devs do think that mainline is perfect. Maybe it really is perfect and doesn't need to change, because that's a possibility.

Before I got into arguing with Noy about whether or not the Ideas forum should stay as it is. I didn't really realize how much the mainline has been "perfected," at least in the minds of the devs. I'd say, if the Ideas forum is only for the mainline, then they should have closed it long ago.

Granted, it isn't just for the mainline but for the whole game engine too. But, it seems like ideas for the mainline era are mostly unwelcome. That's fine, but I don't see why the devs insist on wasting their breath on this forum.

If I'm mistaken, if this forum is only for mainline, I suggest all such related ideas be forbidden. I'm in the final stages of making my own campaign and I'm very open to new ideas on this forum that might coincide with it. In fact, I just saw a CABD idea (the custom currency) on here the other day that I definitely plan to include in the campaign.

I fully agree, Mille, that the scope of conversation for new ideas is very narrow. It seems that if it doesn't fit into mainline, it's just worthless. I ask myself if there will even only ever be one mainline era. Either way, I'd like to see the rules of this forum revisited (especially the one that Dave wrote stating "Stating that one does not like an idea, or making general criticisms of ideas (including subtle mocking by posting ridiculous extensions to the idea in an attempted reductio ad absurdum), is not acceptable in this forum. Such posts may be deleted.").

[turin]

The purpose of the ideas forum was never to actually ask for ideas, even back in 2004 when it was first introduced. It was basically always intended to keep the inevitable 'ideas' in one place, where they would not contaminate the rest of the forums. (And if a good idea did manage to show up, it would be noticed by one of the devs who bothers reading the forums).

And in general...


Ideas that add new content: Good, unless they're too hard to implement.

Ideas that change gameplay: Bad, unless there was something wrong with the gameplay to begin with that is being fixed.

[Ken_Oh]

I'm totally cool with that. Ideas -are- cheap and most ideas might not even be suitable. But, if that's the case, then why the inevitable thumbs up/down from devs and subsequent arguments that arise from it?

The fact that "good" ideas that just might make it into the game get moved to the Dev's Discussions should tell us that if any one idea thread doesn't make it into that forum, we can assume a silent thumbs down.

[Na'enthos]

I'm totally cool with that. Ideas -are- cheap and most ideas might not even be suitable. But, if that's the case, then why the inevitable thumbs up/down from devs and subsequent arguments that arise from it?

The fact that "good" ideas that just might make it into the game get moved to the Dev's Discussions should tell us that if any one idea thread doesn't make it into that forum, we can assume a silent thumbs down.

Personal opinion: people get used to what's in mainline, I guess. And I think having too much (and similar) abilities is needlessly complicating things. Not every unit needs a special ability.. and I think it's possibly the best to use abilities to balance factions and/or to give them a certain 'flavour'. I can come up with a lot of abilities, but I do not suggest them because generally they'd be too powerful or simply not needed.

This is not meant to dissuade anyone from posting his/her ideas, but to give my take on this.

[JW]

I can come up with a lot of abilities, but I do not suggest them because generally they'd be too powerful or simply not needed.

If you do so, try creating a thread entitled "Crazy ideas not meant for mainline" and I bet it'd be hugely popular.

[Na'enthos]

Heh, I bet.

[Ken_Oh]

I'm totally cool with that. Ideas -are- cheap and most ideas might not even be suitable. But, if that's the case, then why the inevitable thumbs up/down from devs and subsequent arguments that arise from it?

The fact that "good" ideas that just might make it into the game get moved to the Dev's Discussions should tell us that if any one idea thread doesn't make it into that forum, we can assume a silent thumbs down.

Personal opinion: people get used to what's in mainline, I guess. And I think having too much (and similar) abilities is needlessly complicating things. Not every unit needs a special ability.. and I think it's possibly the best to use abilities to balance factions and/or to give them a certain 'flavour'. I can come up with a lot of abilities, but I do not suggest them because generally they'd be too powerful or simply not needed.

This is not meant to dissuade anyone from posting his/her ideas, but to give my take on this.

Right, we've breached this. I realize that the game is mature, the community is mature and that the mainline is hardly going to change (except for Saracens?).

What I'm asking is, if that's the case, then why do mods/devs even have to come down and state the obvious (i.e. "This ability isn't good for mainline. I can see it for UMF/UMC, but not for mainline.")?

[turin]

Right, we've breached this. I realize that the game is mature, the community is mature and that the mainline is hardly going to change (except for Saracens?).

Game content will probably continue to be added - new factions, new eras, new campaigns. And some of those will probably come with new unit specials and abilities. But all of them will have to fit with the game as it currently stands.

And I don't see the point of suggesting a single ability intended for mainline. What do you expect the devs to say - "this is a great unit special, and we're going to add it to this unit, even though it will break the fragile MP balance and it is only being added because it is 'cool'"? There's really not very much place for new abilities.

What I'm asking is, if that's the case, then why do mods/devs even have to come down and state the obvious (i.e. "This ability isn't good for mainline. I can see it for UMF/UMC, but not for mainline.")?

Probably because there are many devs (like me) who like speaking as a forum member, not as a dev; if I post in a thread that an idea is bad, that's my personal opinion.

[JW]

Very well written, Rhuvaen, I had similar thoughts. (including about what turin said)

[torangan]

What I'm asking is, if that's the case, then why do mods/devs even have to come down and state the obvious (i.e. "This ability isn't good for mainline. I can see it for UMF/UMC, but not for mainline.")?

Perhaps because many people here are trying to get their ideas into mainline? If you make it clear that you're discussing something for a UMF/C there's no need to state this fact. If that's not obvious it's only polite to tell people early on that their chances to get something like this into mainline are slim. So if that's their only goal they don't need to refine their idea anymore. Unless they're sure enough of it to try changing the mind of the devs.
If you don't intend you stuff to go into mainline, make it obvious and no dev should tell you about it and no other users will be misled either.

[Ken_Oh]

If you don't intend you stuff to go into mainline, make it obvious and no dev should tell you about it and no other users will be misled either.

Heh, I beg to differ.

I don't mean to bring up the past. I'm not looking for some sort of vindication.

It just seems to me that there are major miscommunications/misconceptions on why this forum is here and there is a lot of energy and hot air spent as a result.