Traits for commanders / other 'free' units?

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Na'enthos
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Traits for commanders / other 'free' units?

Post by Na'enthos »

I was wondering why commanders do not have traits. The same goes for 'free' units one can get in campaigns (like Delfador in HttT, for example).

This is hardly a big issue.. and in campaigns the 'free' units are already advantaged in that they don't cost any upkeep.

However, I'd prefer to see commanders (only commanders.. none of the other 'free' units) get traits as well as being 'free'. After all, you have only one (in multiplayer games, anyway) and it is your army's leader.

Thoughts?
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Re: Traits for commanders / other 'free' units?

Post by Darth Fool »

Na'enthos wrote:I was wondering why commanders do not have traits. The same goes for 'free' units one can get in campaigns (like Delfador in HttT, for example).

This is hardly a big issue.. and in campaigns the 'free' units are already advantaged in that they don't cost any upkeep.

However, I'd prefer to see commanders (only commanders.. none of the other 'free' units) get traits as well as being 'free'. After all, you have only one (in multiplayer games, anyway) and it is your army's leader.

Thoughts?
scenario/campaign designers can give their units traits if they want to, but they usually don't, simply because the unit is already unique. The unit is designed with the desired stats, so if the designer wanted to make the unit quick, he would just add one to the movement points and not add the quick trait.
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Post by toms »

But it could be nice thought to have random traits everytime you play.

However, it is up to the campaign designer if he gives heroes traits.
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scott
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Post by scott »

1. The heroes in Liberty have one trait each, but it is tied in with their personalities. Thus, your main hero is resilient, and that is supposed to support, plot-wise, the way you view him. Like Darth Fool said, it's unnecessary for gameplay.

2. Coding-wise, adding random traits to heroes isn't too hard to do but it's a royal pain in the rear. The random trait macro is bulky to begin with, then you add in the manual addition of traits to a unit... it's graduate-level WML (but not monstrously difficult).

Edit: unless the key to generate random traits works in [side]. I would be interested in finding out.

3. It would be unusual for the traits to be random every time (point 2) for the reason I cited in point 1. Having Konrad be quick, intelligent colors his persona. The next time when he is strong, resilient, he's a different person in your mind. As a maintainer I wouldn't want this, but I see how it could be interesting for players to be able to see their heroes a little bit differently each time they play.
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JW
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Post by JW »

Haldiel is Loyal and Strong.
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Post by Jym »

scott wrote:1. The heroes in Liberty have one trait each, but it is tied in with their personalities. Thus, your main hero is resilient, and that is supposed to support, plot-wise, the way you view him. Like Darth Fool said, it's unnecessary for gameplay.
But in Liberty, heroes are mainline units, so traits help to differenciate them from other similar units that you can recruit. As pointed out, Konrad or Delfador are already unique units. And, typically, Konrad already have 6 MP while most similar units (smallfoot) only have 5...
3. It would be unusual for the traits to be random every time (point 2) for the reason I cited in point 1. Having Konrad be quick, intelligent colors his persona. The next time when he is strong, resilient, he's a different person in your mind. As a maintainer I wouldn't want this, but I see how it could be interesting for players to be able to see their heroes a little bit differently each time they play.
But that could really change the whole campaign. Having a quick Konrad would give him 7MP instead of 6 and might save you a few precious turns (hence gold, units, ...) in all the "move Konrad there" scenarios!

Moreover, iirc, loyal units encoutered later (like the horsman from blackwater) do have an additionnal trait since 1.1

In MP, I agree that it could be nice to give one (random) trait to the commander since it is a mainline unit...
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Post by turin »

JW wrote:Haldiel is Loyal and Strong.
Loyal isn't a trait, per se - it is given to units that are already loyal, by virtue of their being given by the scenario designer. It is like the trait undead - it does nothing, it is just informative.
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Post by Stilgar »

JW wrote:Haldiel is Loyal and Strong.
Delfador's got "Intelligent" if I'm not mistaken.
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Post by scott »

All of the free units (Haldiel, Elrian, the thieves of Elensefar, the caged mermen, etc.) were given a trait due to popular clamoring for it. I personally think loyal is enough... but I gave in anyway.
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Post by Na'enthos »

scott wrote:All of the free units (Haldiel, Elrian, the thieves of Elensefar, the caged mermen, etc.) were given a trait due to popular clamoring for it. I personally think loyal is enough... but I gave in anyway.
:roll:
In general, I agree.. but I wouldn't mind making an exception for commanders. Not that I feel it is necessary or anything.
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Post by Jym »

turin wrote: Loyal isn't a trait, per se - it is given to units that are already loyal, by virtue of their being given by the scenario designer. It is like the trait undead - it does nothing, it is just informative.
Undead provides poison resistance.
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turin
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Post by turin »

Jym wrote:Undead provides poison resistance.
False. Giving the trait undead to a normal unit will NOT provide poison resistance. Undead resist poison not because they have the trait 'undead', but because the race 'undead' has the characteristic not_living=yes. This is the same reason boats cannot be poisoned - but boats do not get the trait undead.

If a campaign designer placed an undead unit in a scenario, but forgot to give him the treat "undead", he would still resist poison. And if he for some reason gave "undead" to a normal, non-undead unit, that unit would not gain poison resistance.
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Re: Traits for commanders / other 'free' units?

Post by irrevenant »

Darth Fool wrote:scenario/campaign designers can give their units traits if they want to, but they usually don't, simply because the unit is already unique. The unit is designed with the desired stats, so if the designer wanted to make the unit quick, he would just add one to the movement points and not add the quick trait.
Understandable, but giving the unit the 'quick' trait has the advantage of making it obvious at a glance that it's a speedy unit.

[EDIT1] My moderator comment removed; issue not yet resolved because original poster was talking about randomly assigned MP commanders, not campaign commanders. :oops:
Last edited by irrevenant on June 16th, 2006, 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by JW »

I think adding traits to hero units would add flavor as you can sense the unit's "personality" better, but it really is just a flavor aspect as it won't affect gameplay at all. Giving Konrad 111% of his current hp total, -1mp, and the trat Quick will give him the same stats as he has now.
turin wrote:
JW wrote:Haldiel is Loyal and Strong.
Loyal isn't a trait, per se - it is given to units that are already loyal, by virtue of their being given by the scenario designer. It is like the trait undead - it does nothing, it is just informative.

Code: Select all

#define TRAIT_LOYAL
	[trait]
	id=loyal
	name= _ "loyal"
	description= _ "Zero upkeep"
		[effect]
		apply_to=loyal
		[/effect]
	[/trait]
#enddef
:P
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turin
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Post by turin »

JW wrote:
turin wrote: Loyal isn't a trait, per se - it is given to units that are already loyal, by virtue of their being given by the scenario designer. It is like the trait undead - it does nothing, it is just informative.

Code: Select all

#define TRAIT_LOYAL
	[trait]
	id=loyal
	name= _ "loyal"
	description= _ "Zero upkeep"
		[effect]
		apply_to=loyal
		[/effect]
	[/trait]
#enddef
:P
Sorry, you still lose. Yes, the trait 'loyal' does something normally, but when given to units who you receive free (such as Elran, Delfador, etc) it does nothing, because units given away free are by default upkeepless. ;)
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