Should Leadership or supporting a Backstab end movement?

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Ruri
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Should Leadership or supporting a Backstab end movement?

Post by Ruri » May 16th, 2006, 4:58 am

Something I've noticed in Wesnoth:

You can have a unit with Leadership spend part of their movement to move on to a specific space, attack with some lower-level units adjacent to that space, then move the unit with Leadership elsewhere and have it do something else.

Similarly, you can have a unit that ignores zones of control move next to an enemy, attack from the other side with a backstabber, then move your first unit away with its remaining movement. (It won't work with a normal unit, of course, since they'll lose the necessary extra movement when they walk up to the enemy.)

This means that a unit with leadership can run down a line of creatures and give its bonus to all of them, then turn and add an attack of its own somewhere else. It also means you can have one unit that ignores zones of control zoom around an enemy in an arc to give multiple backstabbers a chance to backstab it before finally putting in a backstab of its own; it's easy to have three rogues all backstab the same enemy, for instance, even with nothing backing them up.

Is this a good thing? As far as I can tell, it actually reduces strategy a little, since it means you don't have to worry quite so much about where you put your leadership units; rather than having to decide on a trade-off between using their attack in the optimal place or using their leadership in the optimal place, you can often do both.

If it isn't a good thing, I would imagine it would be simple to reduce a unit's remaining movement to zero after either event.

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Post by Woodwizzle » May 16th, 2006, 5:06 am

I think its a very very VERY good thing and would hate to see it go.
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JW
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Post by JW » May 16th, 2006, 6:03 am

If leadership worked the way you propose, and it was only introduced at level 3, I wouldn't mind Leadership being added to the Knalgan faction.

Leadership shouldn't work the way you propose though, because I can imagine a General running behind the ranks yelling in his men's ears to inspire them to reach the end of the line and hack at somebody.

.:. Knalgans should not get leadership.

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Re: Should Leadership or supporting a Backstab end movement?

Post by Ken_Oh » May 16th, 2006, 11:42 am

Ruri wrote:Is this a good thing? As far as I can tell, it actually reduces strategy a little, since it means you don't have to worry quite so much about where you put your leadership units; rather than having to decide on a trade-off between using their attack in the optimal place or using their leadership in the optimal place, you can often do both.
Actually, I think this increases strategy. What you're saying is like saying checkers has no strategy because you can jump as many times as you want as long as you set it up, instead of only being able to jump once because then you would have make a harder choice between two different moves that ultimately aren't that much different.

Someone who deal with strategy well can produce great results with the leader slide and then having the leader attack, or only do a leader slide, or it can choose to shield the units or attack with supporting units on either side. Those who don't deal with strategy well won't have quite an effect. Reducing the choices to only two of the above only closes the gap between those two parties, reducing the effect of good strategy.

As far backstab, I don't even think the ability is all that great. The units with backstab are often weak and will most likely die when trying to get into position, not to mention there are often much better alternatives to such units (like Wraith vs. Shadow). I see no need to make the ability worse.

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Post by irrevenant » May 16th, 2006, 12:25 pm

It should be noted that using the 'Leader slide' trick loses half the efficacy of Leadership. ie. You only get the Leadership bonus on your turn.

In a moment it's going to be the other guy's turn and your Leader isn't in position to offer your defenders a boost.

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Re: Should Leadership or supporting a Backstab end movement?

Post by Gauteamus » May 16th, 2006, 12:58 pm

Ruri wrote: Similarly, you can have a unit that ignores zones of control move next to an enemy, attack from the other side with a backstabber, then move your first unit away with its remaining movement. (It won't work with a normal unit, of course, since they'll lose the necessary extra movement when they walk up to the enemy.)
This is not a trick one can pull with a skirmisher, at least not in 1.1.2, and I have no reason to believe the ability will change in upcoming versions.
The skirmisher ignores enemy ZoC, but will, as other units, loose its remaining movement points if it stops in a tile adjacent to an enemy.
The skirmisher can thus slide into position for the backstabber to stab, but can thereafter not move further that round (other than attacking).

Skirmisher/backstabber is still a funny combo, and one of the many reasons to play UtBS.
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Ken_Oh
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Post by Ken_Oh » May 16th, 2006, 1:03 pm

Very good point and all the more reason why one tactic isn't inherently better than another.

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Re: Should Leadership or supporting a Backstab end movement?

Post by Soliton » May 16th, 2006, 4:01 pm

Gauteamus wrote:This is not a trick one can pull with a skirmisher, at least not in 1.1.2, and I have no reason to believe the ability will change in upcoming versions.
The skirmisher ignores enemy ZoC, but will, as other units, loose its remaining movement points if it stops in a tile adjacent to an enemy.
The skirmisher can thus slide into position for the backstabber to stab, but can thereafter not move further that round (other than attacking).
I suggest you test again. Skirmisher never worked that way.
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Post by Oliphant » May 16th, 2006, 4:08 pm

Some wargames I've played have leadership effects that extend out several hexes in each direction. There was a Napoleonic wars series that had leaders effect up to 14 hexes away (for Napoleon). Not saying BfW should implement this, just that the adjacent only leadership effect is underpowered compared to how I've seen it used in other games. Those probably had more units overall on the map and a larger map, though.

Also I think the leader slide is fun and adds something to the strategy.

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Gauteamus
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Re: Should Leadership or supporting a Backstab end movement?

Post by Gauteamus » May 16th, 2006, 4:27 pm

Soliton wrote: I suggest you test again. Skirmisher never worked that way.
:oops: sorry Ruri and others :oops:

i did a playtest with knalgans to ensure me of the 'fact' i presented, just forgot that the lvl 1 thieves does not have skirmish yet :roll: fencers with skirmish work just the way you suggest
you are of course both right, Soliton and Ruri

i however suggest a small change to the help section then, as i find it abit misleading?
svn wesnoth.po wrote: Skirmisher:\n
This unit is skilled in moving past enemies quickly, and ignores all enemy
Zones of Control. (Exception: if you stop in an enemy zone of control, your
remaining movement will be set to 0 even if you are a skirmisher.)
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Post by Jym » May 16th, 2006, 4:53 pm

I really enjoy the "walk behind the line yelling orders" way leadership works. And I used it a lot, I remember Konrad going down the whole line in VoD...

And it is rather general-like because in order to have it work, you need to stay behind your line (until the end) and not come into ennemy ZOC. Usually, when doing so I have to choice for the last movement between getting in position for attack or getting in position for giving leaderdship to 2 more units... (and to lead them during the ennemy counter-offensive).

Moreover, this add some tactical dimension in the sense that movements are no more commutative. You need to carrefully place your leader(s) along the line and remember to move them every time to give order. This allows, on the overall, a leader to lead quite efficiently more than simply 2 units. Which is, I think, nice.
Hypocoristiquement,
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Re: Should Leadership or supporting a Backstab end movement?

Post by Soliton » May 16th, 2006, 5:07 pm

Gauteamus wrote:i however suggest a small change to the help section then, as i find it abit misleading?
svn wesnoth.po wrote: Skirmisher:\n
This unit is skilled in moving past enemies quickly, and ignores all enemy
Zones of Control. (Exception: if you stop in an enemy zone of control, your
remaining movement will be set to 0 even if you are a skirmisher.)
Indeed, I corrected that. It was added by some misinformed developer 6 month ago. Seems skirmisher is so intuitive that no-one actually needs to read its description. :P
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Post by Darth Fool » May 16th, 2006, 5:33 pm

Leadership is not going to change. The only thing that will change is that eventually the AI will know how to use it better than it does now.

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Post by YbeRn00b » May 16th, 2006, 5:35 pm

Leadership and backstab should be as it is.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager » May 16th, 2006, 8:34 pm

Indeed. The only weird thing with Leadership and Backstab is that you can use them both at the same time. You have an Elvish Captain leading on the brave Thief into mighty deeds of stabbing someone in the back! +150% damage!
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