Shroud/Fog-piercing units (Split from Super Speedy Units)

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Dragon Master
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Shroud/Fog-piercing units (Split from Super Speedy Units)

Post by Dragon Master » April 5th, 2006, 8:46 pm

Hmm...interesting. Aparantly getting 0 movement on a terrain really screws things up, but in a good way. I don't know what happens when its 0 movement on one terrain type, but when it's 0 on all terrain you can see the whole map, regardless of fog or shroud, yet you can't move. I guess the program reads zero movement on a terrain as you put all movement points into one hex. The program must be when you move a unit onto a hex, it gives movement points into the hex until its movement has been "filled"
Example: movement on desert hex is one. When a unit moves onto said desert tile, it gives one movement point to the tile. Under this logic, if a unit has zero movement on a tile, it gives all of its movement points to the tile trying to satisfy "zero" which I guess moves into the don't divide by zero rule.
The plus side of this is a units sight is determined by its movement, which explains why units with bad movement on mountains can't see through them.
SO.. How about a unit that's some type of charm/golem/plant/something that's fixed in place, maybe no attack, costs alot, uses one of your castle hexes, BUT lets you see the whole map?
Does this have potential?
P.S. sorry for the wordy post

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Post by SmokemJags » April 5th, 2006, 8:49 pm

Can't move, can't fight, costs a lot, but lets you see the whole map.
Let's see...
That would be a spy satellite.
Somehow I don't believe they had those in an era of magic and goblins and such.

If a player had access to something that let them see the entire map while the other player remained blinded by fog and shroud, that amount of information is ridiculously unbalancing.

If you want to see the whole map, just turn off the shroud.
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Post by sparr » April 5th, 2006, 9:33 pm

I dont think he was suggesting that it should work like that, but that it DOES work like that. It would be better if it didn't, imho.

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Post by SmokemJags » April 5th, 2006, 11:05 pm

SO.. How about a unit that's some type of charm/golem/plant/something that's fixed in place, maybe no attack, costs alot, uses one of your castle hexes, BUT lets you see the whole map?
What part of this sentence suggests otherwise?
It sounds to me like this is exactly the suggestion of how it should work.
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Post by Dragon Master » April 5th, 2006, 11:45 pm

SmokemJags wrote:That would be a spy satellite.

That's not exactly what I meant. I meant it to be some kind of either magical rune, Plant creature that can sense the entire map, maybe a giant magical eye? But yes, that is pretty overpowered, yet with all the negatives I talked about, it seems a pretty fair trade. Spying on your opponent can only do so much. Maybe this can only be campaign specific...

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Post by SmokemJags » April 6th, 2006, 12:18 am

There are much more reasonable ways to view sections of a map through a shroud.

Again, the point of something that can see the entire map seems utterly pointless since this is already accomplished by removing the shroud.
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Post by Dragon Master » April 6th, 2006, 12:31 am

Ok SmokemJags, do you realize that when shroud is off, both players can see each other?
When you set a unit to have 0 movement on terrain, only the player controlling that unit can see the whole map

No luck, with .1 movement costs, it's the same result as with zero

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Post by Kestenvarn » April 6th, 2006, 1:41 am

SmokemJags wrote:Somehow I don't believe they had those in an era of magic and goblins and such.
Image

Ever heard of an Oracle? Anything can be explained, if you try.

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Post by SmokemJags » April 6th, 2006, 2:20 am

Ok SmokemJags, do you realize that when shroud is off, both players can see each other
If a player had access to something that let them see the entire map while the other player remained blinded by fog and shroud, that amount of information is ridiculously unbalancing.
Ever heard of an Oracle? Anything can be explained, if you try.
That reminds me of a funny commercial where the company oracle gets demoted to finances or something because she can't compete with new business management software.
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Post by Sapient » April 6th, 2006, 3:20 am

SmokemJags wrote:Can't move, can't fight, costs a lot, but lets you see the whole map.
Let's see...
That would be a spy satellite.
Somehow I don't believe they had those in an era of magic and goblins and such.
Ever heard of the Eye of Sauron? :wink: Kharn did something similar to this.

This "feature" sounds like it could cause some bugginess, but it is an interesting use of mp.
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/User:Sapient... "Looks like your skills saved us again. Uh, well at least, they saved Soarin's apple pie."

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Post by SmokemJags » April 6th, 2006, 5:12 am

These things like the Eye of Sauron and an Oracle aren't exactly fitting for a unit that can see everything.
The Eye of Sauron was clearly not omnipotent. Sauron was frequently mislead about the where-abouts of the One Ring.
How else could it possibly be brought into Mordor?

Lore aside, I still believe that one player who has to deal with the shroud versus a player who can see everything is a gigantic imbalance.
It would have to be a pre-set scenario where one player has a clearly superior force by is blinded by the shroud versus a player who is omnipotent but has an inferior 'guerilla' force at his disposal.

There has to be better ways to code something like that than taking advantage of a quirk of giving a unit 0 movement cost over terrain.
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Post by Kestenvarn » April 6th, 2006, 10:58 am

SmokemJags wrote:Lawlz. You can't come up with a viable explanation that fits within the setting for a skill allowing you to see the entire map!
Several people wrote:*insert viable explanation here*
SmokemJags wrote:Uhh... hey look at that right behind you!!!
If you choose not to accept those examples, there's still others to be offered. Divination is not exactly rare in fiction.

Also, don't forget that this can be selectively applied to terrain... from the sounds of it, it doesn't have to affect the entire map.

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Post by scott » April 6th, 2006, 1:31 pm

SmokemJags wrote:These things like the Eye of Sauron and an Oracle aren't exactly fitting for a unit that can see everything.
The Eye of Sauron was clearly not omnipotent. Sauron was frequently mislead about the where-abouts of the One Ring.
How else could it possibly be brought into Mordor?

Lore aside, I still believe that one player who has to deal with the shroud versus a player who can see everything is a gigantic imbalance.
It would have to be a pre-set scenario where one player has a clearly superior force by is blinded by the shroud versus a player who is omnipotent but has an inferior 'guerilla' force at his disposal.

There has to be better ways to code something like that than taking advantage of a quirk of giving a unit 0 movement cost over terrain.
It also rolls back fog, which is something that can't be done currently. It could be set temporarily, lasting only for 1 or 2 turns. The eye of Mordor could see everything, but it had to know where to look. That's why they were worried about attracting the eye's attention or diverting its attention away from Frodo. It's the same with satellite imagery. They can see things incredibly close up, but it's like looking through a straw - there is a lot of ground to cover, and you have to use low-res/high-field-of-view instruments to even know where to look in the first place. Anyway, this is interesting to know. A note should be placed in UnitWML in the wiki.
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Post by SmokemJags » April 6th, 2006, 9:56 pm

No need to be rude about it Kestenvarn.
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Post by Dragon Master » April 6th, 2006, 11:14 pm

Can we please drop the fricken Eye of Suaron? Like, seriously

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