[interface] Change "Defense" to "Evasion"

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Caladbolg
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Re: [interface] Change "Defense" to "Evasion"

Post by Caladbolg » March 22nd, 2019, 5:06 pm

While I had no problems understanding the tutorial's explanations of ZoC and defense, after looking into the help section just now, I do think they should be explained more. I expected to see a whole chapter dedicated to ZoC there, but there's only a single paragraph tucked away in the 'Movement' section. Yes, ZoC technically falls under movement, but if a confused newcomer thinks he generally has a good grasp on movement, would he think to read 'Movement' in the help section? I don't consider it unlikely that he'd think this odd blocking that sometimes happens is an ability of some sort, or a bug, or sth. The fact that ZoC is explained in a section where a player maybe wouldn't think to look isn't very helpful.

Now, I'm not sure how much of an issue this is. Maybe most confused players do look under 'Movement' to learn about ZoC. But considering how important a mechanic it is, and how even if you understand it, it's easy to overlook just how useful it is and how much it impacts the gameplay, I think there should be a whole section dedicated to ZoC in Help. Complete with pictures of available movement around a lvl 0 unit, around a lvl 1 unit, ZoC wall-ing the two-hex gap between units, and ZoC-ing a unit in place by placing units on opposite sides of it.

As for defense, it is explained under 'Damage types and resistance'. Again, technically correct, but... Units have attacks with a 'damage type' and they have 'resistances', so to check for explanations on those, you'd naturally go to 'Damage types and resistance'. But would you go there for explanation on 'Defense'? And maybe people generally do that, but now that I've looked at it, it doesn't really seem intuitive. Renaming the section to 'Damage, resistance, defense' would do in this case.

Of course, renaming 'Defense' to 'Evasion' would make the whole thing crystal clear so there'd be no need for any changes in the tutorial. The explanation could stay under ''Damage types and resistance', because it'd just be there for the sake of being documented somewhere in the help section, not because anyone would actually need an explanation of it.
Honestly, I don't see a reason to stick to the term 'Defense' when 'Evasion' represents the mechanic much more accurately, and fits better with the accompanying explanation of it affecting the 'chance to hit'. It's not like the 'Marksman' issue where the term might not apply to melee weapons etc. 'Evasion' is pretty much a perfect fit for what Wesnoth has.

Since the olden days, the two things that annoyed me the most about Wesnoth's terminology and stuff was writing "2 swings of 5 damage each" as 5-2 instead of 2x5, and calling evasion 'defense'. So I'm in full support of the proposal.

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josteph
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Re: [interface] Change "Defense" to "Evasion"

Post by josteph » March 22nd, 2019, 7:23 pm

Caladbolg wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 5:06 pm
But considering how important a mechanic it is, and how even if you understand it, it's easy to overlook just how useful it is and how much it impacts the gameplay, I think there should be a whole section dedicated to ZoC in Help.
If more explanations are needed, expanding the help is a fairly low-hanging fruit (https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/blob ... #L258-L270, just login and click the pencil icon to edit). Even better would be to write tutorial scenarios that explain this sort of thing. Interactive tutorials are good for learning; prose in the help is good for later reference. For example, maybe someone could storyboard a tutorial scenario teaching about ZoC, pinning, skirmishers, etc. Then it could be implemented in an add-on and later even merged into mainline.

Mawmoocn
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Re: [interface] Change "Defense" to "Evasion"

Post by Mawmoocn » March 29th, 2019, 8:59 am

I’m sorry if replies took quite a while. I’m willing to respond as long as I could.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 5:06 pm
Yes, ZoC technically falls under movement,
Technically speaking, "Zone of Control" is something different than movement.

To give a small example.

Movement can be hindered by multiple abilities. This includes slow, invisible abilities (ambush, nightstalk, submerge, concealment), literal unit wall to name a few.

To give one specific usage of invisibility, ambush(invisible ability) will hinder a skirmisher if, a skirmisher discovers the unit that hides(invisible ability), this will automatically remove, all move speed, the skirmisher has. This only applies once, due to ambush being one time use, after being discovered.

From the examples above, they share a similarity that, ZoC is also different, it can do many things depending on how many units you can use. Basically, it allows you to hinder enemy movement, but creative use can do so much more.

ZoC might currently be classified inside movement, but, it’s wrong to think that, it’s limited to movement alone.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 5:06 pm
but if a confused newcomer thinks he generally has a good grasp on movement, would he think to read 'Movement' in the help section?
When you’re desperate, you would read everything, including small pieces of information. If there are concrete examples on how you could use it, when to use it, and other information, it might be easier to learn?
Caladbolg wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 5:06 pm
But considering how important a mechanic it is, and how even if you understand it, it's easy to overlook just how useful it is and how much it impacts the gameplay,
That’s true, it’s very helpful and can be considered unique to this game. Learning how to use ZoC, may face a heavy challenge which is to say ... lack of clear examples and other information.

It isn’t important if, you don’t know, that it can happen.

It will do wonders once, you learn it!
Caladbolg wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 5:06 pm
As for defense, it is explained under 'Damage types and resistance'. Again, technically correct, but... Units have attacks with a 'damage type' and they have 'resistances', so to check for explanations on those, you'd naturally go to 'Damage types and resistance'. But would you go there for explanation on 'Defense'? And maybe people generally do that, but now that I've looked at it, it doesn't really seem intuitive. Renaming the section to 'Damage, resistance, defense' would do in this case.
There’s nothing dedicated specifically for 'Defense' that may explain what it does. 'Damage types and resistance' closely resembles defence, therefore, most players, might read it to find out more. I think the tutorial does teach you the very basics, without involving strategy and tactics, which the official(???) wiki has... and that as well might be incomplete.

Adding defence may sound counter intuitive. It may complicate things, since defence by itself, is a strategy and a tactic.

I actually think it should be separated? Well, if it does make it simple to understand, I’ll pick the choice that does this.

'Damage types and resistance' in simple terms, increases confusion, by explaining things, sparingly present on mainline campaigns, let’s give an example from the help file from Wesnoth 1.12.6 within Damage types and resistance.

Here a part of it, states the following.
If a strike is determined to hit, it will always do at least 1 point of damage. This applies even if the defender has 100% resistance to the damage type.
Technically speaking, in mainline campaigns, only few, select units, are able to do that, like Armageddon Drake. Most of the units that can use 100% resistances, that a player can use, are potentially in User Made Campaigns and multiplayer. Most players, can’t use such units in mainline campaigns, and there’re few units that use 100% resistance.

This may or may not, add further confusion that, (terrain)defence is similar to resistances.

This made me confused for months, on what (terrain)defence really does.

As a bonus on confusing Help section, mentioned in Movement on Wesnoth 1.12.6, this is another example...
Mousing over a highlighted hex shows the defense rating the unit would have if you moved it to that hex.
What does this mean, resistance or defence?

Does it block , reduce, or evade damage?

This, could be improved further and, have a dedicated section, different from Movement, as Wesnoth 1.12.6 help file on movement, referring "defense rating" will be insufficient on how (terrain)defence works.

Caladbolg wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 5:06 pm
Of course, renaming 'Defense' to 'Evasion' would make the whole thing crystal clear so there'd be no need for any changes in the tutorial.
To be honest, It may not be clear with that alone. But since there’s a severe lack of clear and concise explanations, It may hasten the process of conclusion that, it doesn’t reduce damage.

Rather than Evasion, Evasion or Dodge Rate, is the very precise way of saying what it does or Chance to Evade. I’m not picky which, the important thing is it will be clear and concise.
Caladbolg wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 5:06 pm
The explanation could stay under ''Damage types and resistance', because it'd just be there for the sake of being documented somewhere in the help section, not because anyone would actually need an explanation of it.
I’m against putting it together, as that section also lacks something.

As an example on what it may lack.

Poison can be considered as damage over time, or damage that accumulates if nothing is done. It’s already a 'damage type'.

A level 2 unit of the same advancement branch, cannot compete against a level 3 unit in terms of raw damage. Not unless there are level 3 or 4 leaders that have leadership. Level 2 units, in the same advancement branch, can deal more raw damage against level 3 units, of the same advancement branch, once there are leaders that will support a level 2 unit.

Leadership, in a sense, is a buff, that improves damage.

There are more but, I shall end the examples here, to make it short.

Help files may contain redundant, information. If this was done as intended or specified, only very few things can be revised, or none.

Without a concise vision on what the help files should do, this will remain stagnant at what it could do.
josteph wrote:
March 22nd, 2019, 7:23 pm
If more explanations are needed, expanding the help is a fairly low-hanging fruit
Without a vision as a basis on what should change, I think that hastily changing it will cause unintended problems.

Is there a vision on what help files should do?

This will simplify on what to teach, how to teach, and the things that could be incorporated to make learning easier.

As an example.

Teaching the basics and what is considered basic.

The problem? Teaching the basics, based on what developers want, is not the same as players, wanting it easy....

Most games, have players develop certain methods, in which, most wasn’t made to be done that way. ZoC, while I don’t know the true origin, if it was intended to be a feature of the game, or discovered by players.

As players do develop methods on how to play a game, developers have 2 main choices(there are more options but to shorten this, it’ll be 2 choices), they can choose to accept this method or reject it.

Both choices, while can be good or bad, still needs a decision (not deciding is also a decision).

This "decision", is the vision I’m looking for.

Therefore any type of change, makes this a very tricky subject to deal with.

I’m willing to elaborate more, but it’ll be very long wall of text so... I’ll stop here XD


Thank you, for all your feedback!

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josteph
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Re: [interface] Change "Defense" to "Evasion"

Post by josteph » March 29th, 2019, 3:59 pm

Mawmoocn wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 8:59 am
Most games, have players develop certain methods, in which, most wasn’t made to be done that way. ZoC, while I don’t know the true origin, if it was intended to be a feature of the game, or discovered by players.

As players do develop methods on how to play a game, developers have 2 main choices(there are more options but to shorten this, it’ll be 2 choices), they can choose to accept this method or reject it.

Both choices, while can be good or bad, still needs a decision (not deciding is also a decision).

This "decision", is the vision I’m looking for.
ZoC isn't something that's meant to be "discovered" by players. ZoC to wesnoth what en passant is to chess: it's part of the rules, and players are assumed to know the rules / game mechanics before they engage the enemy.

edit: I'm not replying point by point to the rest of what you wrote, but overall, it's great feedback. If the game mechanics (terrain defense, resistances/vulnerabilities (it's the same thing; it's called "resistance" when it's >0 and "vulnerability" when it's <0), weapon specials, etc) aren't clear, we should explain them better, using tutorials, in-game help, wiki, etc. For example, what can we do to make the "terrain defense" concept clearer to new players? Could we extend the tutorial, or extend the in-game help? Would these suffice, in your opinion?

Mawmoocn
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Re: [interface] Change "Defense" to "Evasion"

Post by Mawmoocn » April 5th, 2019, 3:04 pm

I took my time contemplating about this, I don’t think most of these are suitable for implementation. This may fit more of of an idea(?) or a draft.

You don’t need to be obligated to reply, on replies I made for others. You’re free to choose the topic you wish to reply or ignore.


I’ll first explain why vision is necessary for Help files.

Wesnoth 1.12.6 has stated this somewhere inside "Fundamentals of Gameplay".
As you play the game, new information is added to these pages as you come across new aspects of the game.
Wesnoth 1.12.6 "Overview" also mentions the following.
Battle for Wesnoth strives for simplicity of both rules and gameplay. This does not make the game simple, however — from these simple rules arise a wealth of strategy, making the game easy to learn but a challenge to master.
Strategy & Tactics on Wesnoth official wiki, might be unclear(???). Wesnoth 1.12.6 help files, does not mention basics of strategy and tactics for Wesnoth.

It tried to combine important information like ZoC for example, that are necessary to be separated, or failed to dedicate a page inside Wesnoth 1.12.6 help files.

Some of these are mostly, Defense, Unit Composition, Zone of Control, Movement Fast/Slow advantages and disadvantages, and Map Composition.

Other main(?) features like viewing enemy range(Ctrl + V) and knowing how to interpret this information, explanations are combined and have less to no detailed information including but not limited to Ctrl + V and Ctrl + B.

Those are some of the main points that may affect gameplay.


My assumption on what the vision(?) strives to achieve for Wesnoth 1.12.6 help files.

1. Discovering new content to unlock, for fun(?) and new information.
2. Any information that mainly relates to Strategy & Tactics, or directly classify as such, are excluded.
3. It maybe lacking in information, because some(?) are deemed unnecessary, or considered well known as basics.

Yep.......... there are more but ... I’ll stop adding more redundant(?) information.

Having a "vision" may help eliminate or reduce further complications, that can steer to a new direction. That’s the reason I wanted to know if there’s something listed specifically for it.
josteph wrote:
March 29th, 2019, 3:59 pm
For example, what can we do to make the "terrain defense" concept clearer to new players? Could we extend the tutorial, or extend the in-game help? Would these suffice, in your opinion?
Making a concept clearer, is very difficult, since concepts are not bound by literal explanations. Concepts are similar to Strategy & Tactics, it won’t simplify things without showing the "vision" you want to show. Basically you might need to know which things aren’t understood by beginners.

I can’t be a representative to new players, as I already outgrow that long ago. Explanations will depend on who are your target of audience. Extending in-game help, may not be enough without understanding the basics.




The following things I’ll mention, will be long. I will try to exclude anything that may relate or be considered as "Strategy & Tactics".
I’ll list some of what I think is the basics, though I can’t assure if they’re still classified as basic.

Team play
Map composition
Special Events
Units
Zone of Control
Defense (Terrain Evasion)
Damage Type
Difficulty
Victory and Defeat

Miscellaneous (Basic)
Acceleration
Healing
Enemy Range/Show Enemy Moves (Ctrl/Cmd + V)

Miscellaneous (Advanced?)
Choke Points
Unit Movement
Defending against consistent damage
Turn advantage
Best Possible Enemy Moves (Ctrl/Cmd + B)



Team play

The most important part on Battle for Wesnoth, is to understand, that most scenarios, need all(?) units, to complete objectives.

This might be referred as team play, or using units in synergy with each other to complete objective/s.

Most? player error, comes from misunderstanding that, 1 (veteran?) unit is strong enough to kill all enemies.

Wesnoth 1.12.6 Help files might have failed(?) to imply, that it’s a player team versus enemy team.

For mainline campaigns, select few scenarios involve 1 unit to complete objective/s.



Map composition

All games played inside Battle for Wesnoth, use different maps.

Mainline campaigns, some of them feature, enemy leaders and possibly their units, that may have high advantage to either terrain defense(evasion) or terrain movement speed.

Maps can also include, day of time changes, like inside cave scenarios.

Map composition directly influences movement and, can hugely dictate, the pace and
difficulty, a scenario will have, with regards to objective/s.



Special Events

Facilities things that are not mentioned anywhere in the game. Activated(triggered) by player action.

Special events can, involve things that are not present in other mainline campaigns.

This includes adding loyal units, spawning enemy units, and adding enemy gold to name a few examples.



Units

Campaigns use different recruit and recall list.

Unit composition affects how easy or hard a campaign would be. High level units have different characteristics. Most high level units are quite helpful on future scenarios though there’re some exceptions.

Objectives can greatly affect the difficulty, based on unit composition of the player and the enemy.



Zone of Control

Required for crowd control, damage mitigation and trapping units.

Zone of Control can greatly diminish or hinder number superiority, which makes it invaluable for nearly all types of battle.

It is quite necessary for small and large scale battles, especially when there’s a great disparity in numbers.

Zone of Control has some setbacks, It relies on units surviving until your next turn, to work with high effectivity.

Players that have experience playing a similar strategy game, may think that this isn’t special at first glance. This may be a fault of either lack of proper information or uninitiated comparison.



Defense (Terrain Evasion)

Map composition decides the tiles(hex), a player can use(place units).

Defense (Terrain Evasion) allows you to evade fatal damage, though it doesn’t decrease damage when it fails. When used carefully with ZoC, It increases the chance to delay enemy movement.

Marksman and Magical however, destroys or limits Defense (Terrain Evasion).

Poison can be considered dangerous, as it only needs 1 hit to take effect. Though it may need time(turns) to incur high amount of damage, the ways to mitigate poison are numerous.



Damage Type

Besides physical and magical damage, there are other damage types, not listed that include but not limited to, poison(damage over time/turn), charge (double damage for both units), berserk (burst? damage), backstab(double damage), leadership(buff), day of time(buff), swarm(?), first strike(?).

Marksman and Magical can be considered different on, how marksman accuracy changes for terrain, attack and defence, and how magical accuracy, stays the same regardless of terrain, for both attack and defence. Effectively limits Defense (Terrain Evasion) advantages.

Counterattack(Retaliation), Melee and Range damage, might need explanation.



Difficulty

Mainline campaigns have ratings for difficulty, and normally has 3 options, some have 4.

Picking a difficulty completely changes the game’s, enemy and player gold, enemy and player recruitment list, experience gained, turn limit to name a few.

"Help" doesn’t mention the difference between difficulties.

Most campaigns have their own label of difficulty.



Victory and Defeat

This is might not be fleshed out, especially on the 'defeat(ed)' part.

Some semblance of losing should be mentioned(?) inside the game. There is nothing mentioned about losing a scenario or a game. Advice might be important(?).

Very, very, very(....), few scenarios have a defeated speech.



Miscellaneous (Basic)



Acceleration

In my experience, speeding the game would help on trying a scenario again much quicker.

I’ll give an example, there are 2 replays, both involve small and large scale battles.

Let’s say for the default settings, it takes 4 min for the short replay and the long one takes 2 hours to replay.

Now if you use, Skip AI moves, Show no combat, and Accelerated Speed to the maximum, short replay becomes 30 seconds to 2 min and long replay will take 20-40 min to fully replay.

A long replay of 2hrs is considerably long, a play that made this replay, can make it as long as 6 hours or more... this affects morale.

Losing any scenario, becomes unbearable(???) once, it enters a time longer than 30(???) minutes.
This is especially frustrating since it could take a long time, only to lose after exerting much needed hard work. I think speeding these could make it worthwhile?



Healing

Drain could be added as healing.



Enemy Range/Show Enemy Moves (Ctrl/Cmd + V)

Important for ZoC and detecting skirmishers.

The knowledge about the number it shows, defines the number of possible enemies that you will encounter within that tile. Knowing which unit, that can do high damage or hinder your plans(healer/poison), is another story.



Miscellaneous (Advanced?)



Choke Points

Identifying this can be tough, on open maps that have no visible, impassable or unwalkable terrain.

It is well known that this is the crossroads of multiple units, stopping it or avoiding it, could either help or worsen the situation.

Similarly ZoC can create temporary choke points on open maps.



Unit Movement

This affects reinforcement on maps that could be quick or slow, for both the player or enemy.

If you didn’t reduce your enemy’s gold and units, confronting them, might need a ton of sacrifices. Reinforcements may not be able to come quicker.

Retreating might be a lost cause once, stuck at a terrain you’re slow in. This quickly decides the outcome for most games played.

If used against the enemy, avoiding or slipping through them will work.



Defending against consistent damage

The ways to defend against Marksman, Magical, Charge and Berserk are quite limited. They have the potential to incur consistent amount of damage due to damage increase or accuracy to hit.

Defending against consistent(if it lands) damage, mostly depends on hit points, sacrificing(baiting) units and avoiding contact. For marksman and magical, this is necessary.

There are also other ways like using units that have very high resistances against the damage type or using units that can slow. It has a fault of unit dependency.

Killing them before they could attack, works if they’re alone.

First strike could counterattack with slight advantage against charge and berserk or heavily discourage attacking these units.



Turn advantage

A turn consists of all participating teams, the freedom to choose their own choice of action, before ending their turn.

Turn advantage is effective against first player/enemy movement or threat minimisation.

There are 2 things to consider about, first is turn limit, and the other is, knowing your position inside a turn, in which I’ll temporary refer it as turn advantage.

Turn limit, directly affects the difficulty and the options you can do.

Distance against your enemy besides other things, could affect turn advantage.

As a small example. There are 2 teams of enemies, the first enemy team, always have weaker units and the second team have slightly better recruits.

Considering that the first enemy has weaker recruits, it has a potential on hindering stronger enemies from killing your units.

If weaker enemies are farther than stronger enemies, this may hardly work.

Hypothetically, this affects your unit survival rate against day of time, and superior number of high damaging units, a player will fight against.

If a player controls 2 different teams, this can become an important part of the things you can do.

Placing units on a tile that is occupied by an ally(different team), an impossible task to do since there’s no room for movement, without their turn.

This also affects healing, using your own units, to heal other units from different teams.

Multiplayer battles, are partially reliant on turn advantage, since it does happen in real time. This becomes important especially if it involves multiple team of players.

Turn advantage is required for making the first move.



Best Possible Enemy Moves (Ctrl/Cmd + B)

Understanding what it does is quite different from Show Enemy Moves (Ctrl/Cmd + V).

It basically ignores Zone of Control, and it’s useful to determine possible actions after your enemies kill your units.






The help files are well, lacking on defining the things that could be considered important (???).

I don’t think that the things I listed are sufficient. I’ve played the game long ago that I might have missed some very important points.

(A.I.) Enemies rarely use ZoC and defence. Learning on mainline campaigns alone, could be tough.

Redefining the Help files, to help players reduce the burden psychologically, could alleviate some stress.

In the end though, I’m against carelessly adding strategy and tactics, because careless spoon-feeding of information, might cause real harm in the long run. It could be different depending if there’s room for growth.

Vision basically simplifies most of what should be implemented.

So in short, I won’t really suggest changing the help files without concrete vision.

shevegen
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Re: [interface] Change "Defense" to "Evasion"

Post by shevegen » June 12th, 2019, 11:05 am

Purely from a word definition alone, to me defence is very different from evasion. In the first I assume some defensive moves, which might include a step-back AND parry step with a shield or a weapon; in the latter I always complete dodging altogether without any contact whatsoever. At the least that is my non-native english association.

As for terrains - I always found that "terrain modifiers" is the best name, simply because while it may not be perfect, it is really simple to understand. Dwarves like caves, elves like forests, humans like cities ... or something like that.

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