Going Windows!

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fabi
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by fabi »

Anonymissimus wrote:Yeah, every single day someone ditches one of these horrible *nixes is a good day. Not only do they hardly ever work well or at least at all, no, you need decades to grasp how to do even the easiest things! Windows is the best!
:lol2:
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lipk
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by lipk »

you should really give vs 2012 (express) a try. it finally features highlighting, intellisense works almost all of the time (even on classes that are based on complex boost template stuff), supports basic refactoring... feels close to e.g. working with the eclipse java editor.
I'll have a look, although I heard at least one person calling VS 2012 the "ugliest developer tool ever"... :P But highlighting sounds compelling indeed! If only I could understand why they waited until 2012 to implement such a trivial feature.
fabi
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by fabi »

lipk wrote:
you should really give vs 2012 (express) a try. it finally features highlighting, intellisense works almost all of the time (even on classes that are based on complex boost template stuff), supports basic refactoring... feels close to e.g. working with the eclipse java editor.
I am using eclipse for c++ Wesnoth (and the umc Wesnoth plugin) development as well.
It is not as nice as the java support but getting better rapidly.
You can either use cmake to setup an eclipse project or use the "sconsolidator" scons plugin.
Well, it is also possible to setup an eclipse project manually but that option isn't the smoothest.
There is also a plugin that offers git support, even with some special github features (haven't tried them yet).

This is under Linux but should work on Windows as well.

edit: Regarding the Windows version, I have made the best experiences with the "Windows 7" version.
Anonymissimus
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by Anonymissimus »

Well, this thread was an opportunity just too great for not finally spitting out some anti-*nix flame!
fabi wrote:Regarding the Windows version, I have made the best experiences with the "Windows 7" version.
What's up ? You once told me you've never used any windows since the 95 version ?

Too bad Eclipse CDT didn't work at all for me on Linux and never tried on win as MSVC is the better option then.
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign
fabi
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by fabi »

Anonymissimus wrote:Well, this thread was an opportunity just too great for not finally spitting out some anti-*nix flame!
Well, if you want to make a fool out of yourself, go ahead. :wink:
Your first attempt at trolling about the issue wasn't that excellent.
You failed to claim that Windows is more secure because not every wrong doer (except the NSA) can read the source code.
fabi wrote:Regarding the Windows version, I have made the best experiences with the "Windows 7" version.
What's up ? You once told me you've never used any windows since the 95 version ?
For private issues and Wesnoth development, I only use Linux. (Since 1998)
But I was confronted with Microsoft stuff at work regularly.
In general, in a medium sized network, Windows was the greater pain in the ass.
That is not only my personal opinion, every administrator I met so far shares it.
Too bad Eclipse CDT didn't work at all for me on Linux and never tried on win as MSVC is the better option then.
Running Eclipse under Linux is just a matter of installing the package that comes with the distribution (Eclipse is part of every major one), which also installs all the dependencies. That is much more comfortable than installing software on a Windows system.
If you fail to do so, just ask your grandma.

MSVC being the better option is just a matter of taste, I would recommend to have a look at both (and other IDEs like Codeblocks) and judge on personal preference.
Anonymissimus
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by Anonymissimus »

fabi wrote:
Too bad Eclipse CDT didn't work at all for me on Linux and never tried on win as MSVC is the better option then.
Running Eclipse under Linux is just a matter of installing the package that comes with the distribution (Eclipse is part of every major one), which also installs all the dependencies. That is much more comfortable than installing software on a Windows system.
If you fail to do so, just ask your grandma.
Sorry, I still fail to feel comfortable about scattering a program's stuff all over the operating system just as well as synaptic bothering me with strange errors when resolving dependencies.
Eclipse worked well for java. It just didn't for wesnoth; you remembered getting the error as well when I told you about it but you unfortunately could not provide a solution. :P
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign
fabi
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by fabi »

Sorry, I still fail to feel comfortable about scattering a program's stuff all over the operating system...
I can't see any disadvantage in the way unix operating systems' file hierarchy is organized.
But I can list some advantages if you want.
The Windows way of relying on the registry to organize where is what, well...
...just as well as synaptic bothering me with strange errors when resolving dependencies.
Synaptic (or better the underlying dpkg and apt database) isn't working well on a fresh installation?
Eclipse worked well for java. It just didn't for wesnoth; you remembered getting the error as well when I told you about it but you unfortunately could not provide a solution. :P
But I can do so now: Use Sconsolidator instead of cmake to setup your Eclipse project.

The issue was neither a Linux nor an Eclipse problem, but something being wrong with our cmake files.
That should affect Eclipse running on a Windows operating system as well.
Maintaining the MSVC project files seems also to be a lot of work.
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pyrophorus
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by pyrophorus »

fabi wrote: But I was confronted with Microsoft stuff at work regularly.
In general, in a medium sized network, Windows was the greater pain in the ass.
That is not only my personal opinion, every administrator I met so far shares it.
<snip>
The Windows way of relying on the registry to organize where is what, well...
I second this. Win can be the best when you want only to do trivial things. If not, you must find your way through a whole bunch of esoteric windows, if only the thing is possible. In my company, someone tried to set up a firewall on a window box and finally had to give up.
And that's right, XP and Win7 are the most reliable versions.

Friendly,
Campaign Return to Noelren *** HowTos: WML filtering, WML variables
Please help to to update the Guide to UMC Campaigns
gfgtdf
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by gfgtdf »

i'd reccomend you vs 2012 even though i have nerver used it. from msdnaa you should also be able to get the ultimate version for free.
it might be a little ugly but recently found a page that explains how to change the skin to make it look more like vs 2010/2008.

the reasons are simply the newer features, especialy better support for c++11 (and C#5 if you like). Wesnoth still relied on an odler c++ standard, but i suppose you are not only using it for wesnoth.
Scenario with Robots SP scenario (1.11/1.12), allows you to build your units with components, PYR No preperation turn 1.12 mp-mod that allows you to select your units immideately after the game begins.
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lipk
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by lipk »

I am using eclipse for c++ Wesnoth (and the umc Wesnoth plugin) development as well.
I loathe Eclipse.
i'd reccomend you vs 2012 even though i have nerver used it. from msdnaa you should also be able to get the ultimate version for free.
it might be a little ugly but recently found a page that explains how to change the skin to make it look more like vs 2010/2008.

the reasons are simply the newer features, especialy better support for c++11 (and C#5 if you like). Wesnoth still relied on an odler c++ standard, but i suppose you are not only using it for wesnoth.
As for now, I do. My other work involves Qt, so I'm obviously using QtCreator for that.

Is there a way to run the application from inside VS? I could only find a debug option and that's very, very slow... (by the way, what is the reason for Microsofts's debugger being a hell lot slower than gdb?)
gfgtdf
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by gfgtdf »

lipk wrote: I loathe Eclipse.
why??
Is there a way to run the application from inside VS? I could only find a debug option and that's very, very slow... (by the way, what is the reason for Microsofts's debugger being a hell lot slower than gdb?)
what exactly is slow, running the programm, compiling, setting a breakpoint... ?

Strg+F5 starts an application without debugging, i think there is also a way to add a button for that, you also have to change the mode from "Debug" to "Release" near the normal Debug Button otherwise you'll compile it in debug mode just without attaching the debugger.
Scenario with Robots SP scenario (1.11/1.12), allows you to build your units with components, PYR No preperation turn 1.12 mp-mod that allows you to select your units immideately after the game begins.
Anonymissimus
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by Anonymissimus »

lipk wrote:I could only find a debug option and that's very, very slow... (by the way, what is the reason for Microsofts's debugger being a hell lot slower than gdb?)
I believe the reasons are that the wesnoth dev team is extremely *nix-centric and some things about the wesnoth code structure; the fact that it seems very complex, is using a lot of templates, heavy boost usage perhaps, I suppose somehow the config class, which is extremely central for the project, the fact that there's this apparent boost upstream bug which makes it impossbile to use the wml preprocessor cache when starting under the debugger and so on.
The simutrans source code for instance compiles and debugs surprisingly fast with the same machine and setup for me, even though this is also a pretty complex C++ project. (http://www.simutrans.com/en/)
The MSVC debugger is also in some way a lot better than gdb. For instance, it does some memory handling checks, which sometimes find things that even valgrind does not. This happened with wesnoth for me in the past. So, it's important to develop C++ cross-platform in order to get the best of all worlds.
projects (BfW 1.12):
A Simple Campaign: campaign draft for wml startersPlan Your Advancements: mp mod
The Earth's Gut: sp campaignSettlers of Wesnoth: mp scenarioWesnoth Lua Pack: lua tags and utils
updated to 1.8 and handed over: A Gryphon's Tale: sp campaign
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lipk
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by lipk »

gfgtdf wrote:
lipk wrote: I loathe Eclipse.
why??
Well, when I first tried it, I pressed a shortcut by accident which hid the main toolbar altogether and couldn't figure out how to bring it back. It's also slow, unstable and ugly. And requires me to install Java.
Is there a way to run the application from inside VS? I could only find a debug option and that's very, very slow... (by the way, what is the reason for Microsofts's debugger being a hell lot slower than gdb?)
what exactly is slow, running the programm, compiling, setting a breakpoint... ?
Running the program.
Strg+F5 starts an application without debugging, i think there is also a way to add a button for that, you also have to change the mode from "Debug" to "Release" near the normal Debug Button otherwise you'll compile it in debug mode just without attaching the debugger.
Thanks for the tip! I tried running the debug build without the debugger but that's still very slow (and also crashed. shadowm, I have your crash!!!); apparently the instrumented binary is problematic itself. I'll try with rebuilding in Release mode sometime soon.
Anonymissimus wrote:I believe the reasons are that the wesnoth dev team is extremely *nix-centric and some things about the wesnoth code structure;
I don't think that justifies such drastically poorer performance - with GDB I could run the game with a stable 50 FPS, the VS debug build can go down to as low as 3-4 FPS while playing animations. I guess the answer is instead that the MS debugger collects more data than GDB, as you mentioned.
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West
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by West »

pyrophorus wrote:I second this. Win can be the best when you want only to do trivial things. If not, you must find your way through a whole bunch of esoteric windows, if only the thing is possible. In my company, someone tried to set up a firewall on a window box and finally had to give up.
And that's right, XP and Win7 are the most reliable versions.

Friendly,
Only do trivial things? Exactly what do you consider non-trivial? Programming and running servers? From the top of my head that's the only two things Linux might be better at than Win/Mac.

Take music production and other audio work for example. Linux is at least a decade behind Windows and OS X. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. And unless Photoshop happens to run much better than it used to (let me guess, it doesn't?), or GIMP has gotten a major overhaul lately (let me guess, it hasn't?), or some new major revolutionary gfx software has emerged in the last few years (let me guess.. ), 2D graphics is not Linux's strong suit either. Blender? Last I looked you needed a flight certificate to even change camera views.

Add to this the fact that you still -- in the year 2013 -- have to type cryptic s__t into a terminal to perform anything beyond superficial configuration tasks, and it's no wonder that hardware and software developers show such reluctance when it comes to supporting Linux. It's an OS for masochists, or at least people who consider computer configuration to be a goal in itself.

BTW, anyone who can't set up a firewall on a Windows machine is either computer illiterate or so severely brain damaged from too much Linux use that user friendliness is interpreted as a software flaw.

Let the nerdrage commence... ;)
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Dugi
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Re: Going Windows!

Post by Dugi »

As a Linux user, I can tell you that you are only partially right. In most cases, Linux installs without problems, and you don't need any crazy experimentation. You get Windows usually preinstalled, so problems are solved in advance. If you come to such problems on Windows, you can't do almost a thing. Once it happened that Internet stopped working on my Windows 7. I could not investigate anything, because the guts of Windows are top secret, I was just fortunate that the only option possible, reinstalling the driver, fixed it. Also, updates to Windows 7 seemed to slow the computer down, making it take twice as much time to start (at least for me). My brother has crazy performance problems with Windows XP on his laptop, but there is pretty much nothing he can do about it. Maybe if you don't do experiments, Windows runs better, but once that you need to do something that does not have a nice GUI for it, you will have a bad time (and because of the about 40% success rate of antiviruses, this will happen sooner or later).
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